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George Frederick Helsden born 22/12/1822

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Re: George Frederick Helsden born 22/12/1822

Postby Justmaz » Sat Mar 24, 2018 10:15 pm

Thank you Adrian we really appreciate the information that you have collated for us, it is a great help. We don’t really know where else we can go with his navy records if we can’t get any info prior to 1846 (well anything we can use to find other significant people in his life I should say). When we first joined this forum we were really struggling to get anywhere with this. You all have far more knowledge than we have and, along with sparrow and Ian, you have helped us enormously. Although we haven’t, as yet, got any closer to GFH’s parents, the links to different sites you have passed on to us and the expertise you have shared with us has really boosted our determination to keep going. We continue to be amazed at the information you come up with. To know you guys are there to help when we get stuck is really appreciated, and we are very grateful to you all. GFH was/is a man of mystery, but we know more now than we did. We are not sure where to go from here, if we are honest, but we know we don’t want to give up..... Is there anything we are overlooking, we keep thinking there is but we don’t know what.
Thanks again Maz
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Re: George Frederick Helsden born 22/12/1822

Postby ianbee » Sat Mar 24, 2018 11:06 pm

Great work, Adrian.
He seems to have joined HMS Vulture 1 July 53 - the date you mention - signed up for 10 years?
And got that Baltic Medal.
Then after Vulture, but not ten years after, he is into the Coastguard.
It turns out that we can see some records of the Coastguard at home on the TNA image viewer (not distorted thankfully), or even download them for free.
So in ADM 175/98 we have what may be him(?) on image 96 of 242 (folio 129, right hand side)
http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.u ... r/C2976659

Which seems be a kind of index leading - in his case - to ADM 175/7? Not sure how quickly he could be found in that, and it's unlikely that it would lead to anything useful - but interesting, yes.

Something may have been up with Mr Cheetham in 1854. Or not. He had been pensioned off but came back? I think they were asking about it (from memory it was the WO 4/891 entry on fmp, transcribed Chertham, but I can't lay my hands on it now - I thought it mentioned Bognor!)
Ian
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Re: George Frederick Helsden born 22/12/1822

Postby sparrow » Sun Mar 25, 2018 1:32 am

Brilliant to see all the naval information collated like this.Wish I had the expertise (and the FMP subscription, I only allow myself one per year and currently it is Ancestry).
Honing in on the 10 year engagement in 1853 that didn't happen: I suppose the obvious explanation is health?IObviously the non fulfilment of the engagement was officially sanctioned, otherwise no transfer to the Coastguard service.But could it also be linked to GFH's relationship with Charlotte?Could he ask for a transfer to the Coastguard Service because he was about to marry?Or (slightly later in the year) because his 'wife' was pregnant (which we happen to know with reasonable certainty she already was when the banns were read May/June 1856)? Just a thought... (And of course ignoring the problem of Thomas Cheetham).

Mazz in general I don't reckon GFH was exceptionally mysterious! The 1820s/1830s are tough. Have several key people in my family tree totally defeating me years after I started looking for them, one is another mariner called James.There just aren't enough records to cross reference.But I'd say the best chances of finding needles in haystacks in the 1830s are likely to be institutional admissions nand the sort of odd sets of records that FMP provides. My hunch is still that like your grandfather GFH basically brought himself up and that even his mother may have disappeared early in the story.If it was 30 or 40years later there would be better workhouse records and a fair chance he might pop up in a local paper for a minor offence.1830s less hopeful but worth considering...

I'm still puzzling over "George Fletcher".Fair enough he might well have done this to get home, but would he then have in effect got official 'approval' for it? Intriguing possibility: could he also genuinely BE George Fletcher (ie one is his mother's name and one his father's name?) Again: just a thought!
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Re: George Frederick Helsden born 22/12/1822

Postby sparrow » Sun Mar 25, 2018 3:10 am

Battled for a while with GFH's posting but it is St Osyth's Stone Point. Good 'local colour' here: https://www.tendringdc.gov.uk/sites/def ... raisal.pdf
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Re: George Frederick Helsden born 22/12/1822

Postby ianbee » Sun Mar 25, 2018 8:43 am

sparrow wrote:Battled for a while with GFH's posting but it is St Osyth's Stone Point.

Well done, I couldn't decipher that last night!
I now find that the gloomy looking pages at the start of the Establishment Book in ADM 175/7 are not after all blank, but if you zoom in and squint hard you see that they contain the folio numbers for the different stations!
So St Osyth begins folio 348, and we find George Helsden on image 708 (of 792), using the image viewer.
http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.u ... r/C2976565

Before realising that I tried to download the thing, it didn't work - perhaps just as well given the size of it.

He also features in ADM 175/79, Registers of Nomination for Appointments, 1842-1856
Using that number for him from the first record, 4149, he was easy to find (Hailsden?) on images 449 and 450 (of 503)
http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.u ... r/C2976637

Ian
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Re: George Frederick Helsden born 22/12/1822

Postby sparrow » Sun Mar 25, 2018 9:27 am

Brilliantly found again Ian.I panic just looking at those pages, St Osyth Stone Point was found by slightly random googling.

But aren't the dates interesting if we look at the dates of the marriage banns?

Which scenario I wonder...?
-Oh by the way George now we have arranged the wedding I should probably let you know of a forthcoming happy event. Time for you to settle down and become a coastguard like my father (remembering this was Peter Magee's occupation).

Or more prosaically: were coastguards expected to be married? So was evidence of intent to marry part of the application? Perhaps he could only take Charlotte with him as his wife.

Application on 9 June, appointment (they were an efficient lot) on 12 June.And off they all go to Essex.Where, understandably, no one ever asked to see the marriage certificate.

Margaret
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Re: George Frederick Helsden born 22/12/1822

Postby AdrianB38 » Sun Mar 25, 2018 11:32 am

I've tried to update my timeline to add HMS Vulture and his coastguard appointment - I've not been keeping up with the detail there so I may have missed bits. Changes are in italics.

Perhaps he could only take Charlotte with him as his wife

I think, Margaret, that you probably have something in the right area. Just a personal guess but if married quarters were on offer, this could have encouraged them to get married. No marriage means Charlotte finds her own accommodation? While they don't seem to have got legally married, this might be where the deception comes in - "If anyone asks, you're Esther..." I don't think that appears until later on in the census(?) but she wouldn't be the first name-changer to be a bit flakey about what their name was... (My own GG-GF swapped his surname between 2 - no intent to deceive, of course - well, not if you disregard the minor detail of bigamy!)
Adrian
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Re: George Frederick Helsden born 22/12/1822

Postby Justmaz » Sun Mar 25, 2018 3:05 pm

Oh wow, again you have come up with facts that we wouldn't have found in a million years. We didn't even know these links existed! We had to smile, the first link to Discovery showed GFH was removed from his ship due to Disrespect... makes you wonder what he did ...All these bits of information are really helping us get a picture together of the life and times of. Getting back to the Fletcher phase of GFHs life... we think/hope this name is significant... as you have said could be Mothers or Fathers name... worth a dig around. Just to let you guys know, we are going to visit both GFHs and Esther's grave once we are able to ascertain if they are still in existence, so thanks for making that a possibility.
Kind regards all Maz
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Re: George Frederick Helsden born 22/12/1822

Postby Justmaz » Wed Mar 28, 2018 4:41 pm

Hi All
I have tried searching for just George Frederick adding 1822 +- 2 years on FMP with no surname name in the hope that I would find GFH's birth or baptism with an alternative surname unfortunately all to no avail. I can only think that perhaps his birth was not registered in the UK or perhaps as been suggested he didn't know his parents, so we end up at a dead end yet again. The only thing that I don't understand is how GFH ended up with his full name of George Frederick Helsden especially as it appears that he could not read or write.
As said before GFH married certificate is endorsed with James Helsden as his father although he was not used as a witness so it may mean that he was not present at the wedding.
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Re: George Frederick Helsden born 22/12/1822

Postby sparrow » Wed Mar 28, 2018 11:00 pm

Yes I'd tried the same, though I have to say a baptism could be a very long time after a birth.One branch of my family (the one with a sailor named James!) had two successive sailor husbands, one child apparently born in Germany, and though he was baptised only a couple of years after birth his two half sisters were baptised at around 20, just prior to marriage.
So it's a big haystack to look for a needle in, and in a parish where many of the marriages involved sailors a long way from home I'd guess the vicar or curate just had to ignore the possibility the husband to be might not be baptised (though strictly speaking he should have checked).
Because of the 'far from home' scenario I wouldn't really expect the father to be a witness at the wedding (quite rare anyway in my experience) even if still alive.
Not having a current FMP subscription I did notice a couple of possibilities for George in the 1830s that I could not access.Other than that i'm still looking (and for my own James!).
Incidentally found a marriage last night for Charlotte and Esther's sister Susanna.She too married a sailor! Also found their brother serving in the navy.In all 3 cases a lot less evidence than for GFH!
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