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re posting on this board originally on Genealogy chat

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re posting on this board originally on Genealogy chat

Postby nuttree » Sun Jan 28, 2018 5:28 pm

Two brothers marry two sisters one couple has a tragic short married life the other seems to be a caring uncle and aunt but there are many questions about the relationships within the families. Can anyone help sort them out from the facts below please?
Benjamin baptised Sedgley 2 Nov 1817 son of James and Maria FLAVELL
Edmund baptised Sedgley 9 Jan 1820 son of James and Maria FLAVELL
Mary baptised Sedgley 2 May 1819 Daughter of George and Fanny FLAVELLSarah baptised Sedgley 5 Aug 1821 Daughter of George and Fanny FLAVELL

18 Jul 1841 Benjamin Flavell marries Sarah Flavell, Sedgley (Free Reg) He full age a miner from Kingswinford She a minor from Gornal Wood. His father James Flavell labourer her's George FLAVELL a boatman Witnesses Thomas and Lydia Collins
7 Nov 1841: Edmund Flavell marries Mary Flavell, SEDGLEY (Free Reg) Both from Gornal Wood. His father James Flavell a labourer, no mention of a father for her is this a transcription error or was none given? Witnesses James Bennett and Eliza FLAVELL
Sep qtr 1842: Fanny Flavell, mmn Flavell, birth reg at Stourbridge
Mar qtr 1846: William Flavell is born - but to which couple? Birth reg at Dudley. Mother's maiden name Flavell (GRO index)
4 Jun 1848 baptism of Maria Flavell Kingswinford and St Marys Chapelry, daughter of Edmond and Mary FLAVELL
Sep 1849 Edmund Flavell dies of cholera, aged 29.(8 September 1849 - Birmingham Journal)
8 Sep 1849 buried Edmund Flavell Lower Gornal abode Commonside (Free Reg)
8 Sep 1849 buried Maria Flavell Lower Gornal abode Commonside (Free Reg)
14 May 1850 buried Mary Flavell Lower Gornal abode Brockmoor age on GRO index 28 age on burial 31??
16 Jun 1850: Baptism of Edmund Flavell, son of Edmund & Mary, at Pensnett.no mention that his parents are deceased
1851 census (Commonside, Pensnett): HO107/2036 fo738 p29
Sch 105Benjamin & Sarah have “daughter” Fanny, 8, & “son” Edmond, 10mo. Lodger Susanna Flavell (sister of Benjamin)
Sch 104 Maria Flavell widow (Mother of Benjamin and Edmund) with married daughter Elizabeth Pearce
3 Aug 1852 buried Lower Gornal Edmund Flavell age 2 Residence Brockmoor
1861 RG 9/2070 fo128 p33 Fanny 18 niece of B&S and Jane Prosser 7 mnths also niece of B&S
1871 RG10/3026 fo149 p31 William 25 son of B&S
Questions that need help please
Were all the children Edmund and Mary's giving a family;
Fanny 1843, William 1846, Maria 1848-1849, Edmund 1850-1852.
Or are some children of Benjamin and Sarah?
Who were Jane Prosser's parents and what happened to her?
Who were William's parents and where was he in 1851 and 1861?
I would appreciate help with any of this please.
nuttree
 
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Re: re posting on this board originally on Genealogy chat

Postby nuttree » Sun Jan 28, 2018 6:03 pm

To add to the confusion I now know a James FLAVELL married an Eliza FLAVELL in Sedgley 2 Oct 1836 ( Free Reg) The witnesses were the same as for Benjamin and Sarah's marriagr and an Eliza witnessed Edmond and Mary's marriage so there must be a tie up but I have not found either a James or Eliza in the twi families I thought were involved with the Benjamin and sarah and Emmund and Mary couples. more problematic FAMILY search batch C05928-1 has four children baptised for the couple BUT these do not appear on Free Reg and two of the dates are too close to be siblings How much credance can you give to such batch numbers on Family Search In the good old days of The Hugh Wallis list I thought these codes represented exttracted from regisers and therefore reliable, has that now changed?Name:
Fanny Flavell
Birth Date: 28 Apr 1839
Christening Date: 23 Jun 1839
Death Date: 16 Feb 1840
Christening Place: GORNALL,STAFFORD,ENGLAND THIS ONE IS ALSO ON FREE REG FOR LOWER GORNAL

Betsey Flavell
Birth Date: 01 Feb 1843
Christening Date: 21 May 1843
Christening Place: GORNALL,STAFFORD,ENGLAND

Name: William Flavell
Birth Date: 27 Jan 1846
Christening Date: 27 Jan 1846
Christening Place: GORNALL,STAFFORD,ENGLAND

Name: Sarah Flavell
Birth Date: 11 May 1846
Christening Date: 07 Feb 1847
Christening Place: GORNALL,STAFFORD,ENGLAND

All the above to James and Eliza FLAVELL Surely Sarah and William can not be siblings so is there yet another James and Eliza in the mix??? SO which are Eliza nee Flavell's children is this the missing William who turns up as son of Benjamin in 1871??
Last edited by nuttree on Mon Jan 29, 2018 6:54 am, edited 1 time in total.
nuttree
 
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Re: re posting on this board originally on Genealogy chat

Postby MaureenE » Mon Jan 29, 2018 4:08 am

In respect of the FamilySearch batch CO 5928-1, I looked at one of the records in the batch, as an example, https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:NG3P-35X and it said that this record was from FHL microfilm 426549.

If you look at 426549 in the catalogue,
https://www.familysearch.org/search/cat ... r%3A426549
you will see that you can view the digitised church records at a Family History Centre.

The FamilySearch records are therefore transcript of actual church records, but they may be subject to transcription errors.

Cheers
Maureen
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Re: re posting on this board originally on Genealogy chat

Postby nuttree » Mon Jan 29, 2018 8:55 am

Thank you Maureen that is reasuring, but it still doesn't explain the two births in 1846.

The 1851 census HO107/2030 fo380 p20 for James and Eliza show Betsey, Sarah and Hannah with them as daughters so that still leaves William unacounted for and he turns up in 1871 with Benjamin and Sarah he is a mystery. If he was Benjamin or Edmund's son why was he baptised as Jame's son? I desperately need him in 1851 and 1861. Can anyone help find him please?
nuttree
 
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Re: re posting on this board originally on Genealogy chat

Postby nuttree » Mon Jan 29, 2018 11:34 am

Now I am totally confused Family Search batch C05928-1 has
Sarah Flavell born 11 May 1846 baptised 7 FEB 1847 daughter of James and Eliza
GRO index has Sarah Flavell mother Flavel born March qtr 1847,
Now that would be a good match for the Feb baptism and fits the 1851 census when she is with her parents and would make it more likely that the William was also a child of James and Eliza. I just can't see how the birth date could have been mistaken.
Oh dear William was buried on Feb 1 1846 6 days but surely Sarah was not born 11 May 1846.

Oh well at lest that puts him out of the original question where was the "son" that appeares on the 1871 census with Benjamin in 1871 before that census?
Last edited by nuttree on Tue Jan 30, 2018 12:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: re posting on this board originally on Genealogy chat

Postby trace » Mon Jan 29, 2018 8:24 pm

I would question the birth date of William....it wouldn't be the first time that the baptism date has been used as the birth date incorrectly.
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Re: re posting on this board originally on Genealogy chat

Postby nuttree » Tue Jan 30, 2018 12:55 pm

The burial on 1 Feb says he was 6days old which matches the birth date and the baptism record gives baptism and birth on the same day so I am confident about William's dates but not Sarah's. But it shows that this William was son of James and Eliza so not the chap who turns up in 1871 as son of Benjamin now he is the real mystery where was he prior to 1871 and why wasn't he registered?
nuttree
 
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Re: re posting on this board originally on Genealogy chat

Postby meekhcs » Tue Jan 30, 2018 1:39 pm

I suspect the index giving you the birth and baptism dates for Sarah is incorrect. Unfortunately I have found many transcription errors on this site when it has offered me hints in my own research. I think the GRO record 1847 Q1 Dudley Staffs vol 18 page 332 may well be your Sarah. It is the only birth registration that in any way fits her dates. Unless anyone is able to look at the original baptism register for you I would purchase this cert.
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Re: re posting on this board originally on Genealogy chat

Postby nuttree » Tue Jan 30, 2018 6:00 pm

I agree with you it does seem that Sarah's birth date is mis transcribed.but as I have stumbled across this family while searching for the William on the 1871 tree this William 's death has eliminated the birth registration I had thought likely to be the William I am looking for . Oh dear there are so many Williams around but none that fit the one I am looking for he must be on the 1851 and 1861 censuses how could he fail to be on one or other? and what happened to him after the 1871 census
To remind everyone:
RG10/3026 fo149 p31 ed: Stourbridge, Kingswinford 15
Benjamin FLEVELL Head Mar 53
Sarah FLEVELL Wife Mar 49
William FLEVELL Son Un 25 Miner Staffordshire Sedgley

Benjamin and Sarah had a nephew and niece listed as son and daughter in 1851 and the niece correctly listed as such in 1861 then this "son" William just appears out of nowhere in 1871 ...was he their son or the son of Edmund and Mary who both died before the 1851 census
Benjamin nd Edmund were sons of James FLAVELL and Maria nee Hickmans
ad Sarah and Mary were daughters of George FLAVELL and Fanny nee Jones
nuttree
 
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Re: re posting on this board originally on Genealogy chat

Postby nuttree » Tue Jan 30, 2018 6:42 pm

WOWEEE I have just taken anither look at the James and Eliza marriage and find I had overlooked a baptism for George and Fanny because she was down as Frances and yes they had an ELIZA in 1818 the perfect age to be the one marrying James and who had the children mentioned before from the Family Search no wonder they had the same witnesses and all three couples names the first daughter Fanny I expect in honour of the girls' mother. So that excursion was not a red herring after all . BUT who was William on the 1871 census Gosh three Flavell sisters all marrying FLAVELL men.
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