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Hibbert/Prosser/Robinson Salford, Hulme, Manchester area

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Hibbert/Prosser/Robinson Salford, Hulme, Manchester area

Postby DianaCanada » Sat Jan 27, 2018 4:03 pm

I have a DNA match on Ancestry who matches as a 3rd cousin to my brother and a 4th-6th to me. Although the person had not added a tree, I was able to figure out from what was there, who we share in common.

This person is descended from my grandfather’s cousin, their fathers being brothers. However, when I had a look at the information, it threw up a few questions for me.
The cousin of my grandfather, Samuel Hibbert, was b. ca 1870 in Salford, Lancs., baptized there on 11 Sep of that year. His parents were John and Ellen (Richardson) Hibbert. John is found in all records as a warehouseman.

I found a marriage on Lancashire Parish Clerks to an Annie Prosser on 3 Jan 1892 at St. Stephen, Salford. Samuel is a bachelor, a carter, living on St. Stephen Street, age 21. His father is John, a warehouseman.

The second marriage, same source, took place on 21 Dec 1901, St. Cyprian, Ordsall, Salford. He is listed as a bachelor, age 33, living at the same address as one of the witnesses (Ordsall Lane, where a number of my relatives lived over the years), and occupation given as a lorryman. His father is John Hibbert, warehouseman, deceased (my great-great-uncle John did die between these two marriages). The bride was Sarah Ellen Robinson, spinster, 25, daughter of John Robinson, blacksmith. She also gives a different address on Ordsall Lane, no Robinsons there on the 1901.
The matching person on Ancestry DNA is descended from a child of the second marriage.

From the first marriage, I think I have found one child baptized in Hulme, Manchester, Ethel, b. 2 Jul 1892, daughter of Samuel and Annie, he was a carter. They lived on Hargreaves Street, Hulme, also a street where several of my relatives lived in the 19th century.
My problem is that I cannot find Samuel or Sarah Ellen on the 1901 census, nor can I find Annie or Ethel there. I have traced the daughter of Samuel and Sarah Ellen (Emily b. 1903) and as there are several Hibbert/Robinson births in the early 1900’s in the Manchester area, I have not isolated any other children, although a Lily born in 1905 looks promising. I was able to trace her marriage and found her on the 1939 Register.

I would like to know if the two Samuels are the same man (think they are) and if so where are Annie nee Prosser and their daughter Ethel. Where are Samuel and Sarah Ellen in 1901? Any help appreciated!
Last edited by DianaCanada on Wed Jan 31, 2018 3:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Hibbert/Prosser/Robinson Salford, Hulme, Manchester area

Postby JMcK » Sat Jan 27, 2018 9:33 pm

I can tell you that Annie Prosser is unlikely to be the one in Scotland someone has on their tree. Her father is Richard, but a restaurateur in both 1891 and 1901, not a pointsman.
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Re: Hibbert/Prosser/Robinson Salford, Hulme, Manchester area

Postby DianaCanada » Sun Jan 28, 2018 2:46 pm

JMcK wrote:I can tell you that Annie Prosser is unlikely to be the one in Scotland someone has on their tree. Her father is Richard, but a restaurateur in both 1891 and 1901, not a pointsman.


Haven't seen that tree, thanks for pointing that out. I haven't much on Annie as she is not my relative, and am still trying to sort out if the one who married Annie is the same Samuel that married Sarah Ellen Robinson.
Samuel has a 2nd cousin also named Samuel Hibbert about the same age, he's been hard to track too (son of Samuel Hibbert and Elizabeth Barker).
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Re: Hibbert/Prosser/Robinson Salford, Hulme, Manchester area

Postby ianbee » Mon Jan 29, 2018 2:17 pm

Samuel and Sarah seem to be under the name Crimes (or Grimes?) in 1911
On ancestry he is indexed as age 4?? (born 1907).
Name: Samuel Crimes
Age in 1911: 41
Relation to Head: Head
Gender: Male
Birth Place: Manchester, Lancashire
Civil Parish: North Manchester
County: Lancashire
Street address: 76 Chatsworth St Beswick
Marital Status: Married
Occupation: Cartor Railway
Registration district: Prestwich
Sub-registration district: Bradford
ED: 7
Piece: 24288
Household Members:
Samuel Crimes 4??
Surah E Crimes 33
Emily Crimes 8
Lucy Crimes 6
Lilly Crimes 6
Henry Crimes 3
Ellen Crimes 6 mo

There's a baptism at Beswick St Mary, 5 May 1911
Ellen
parents Samuel + Sarah Ellen Hibbert
76 Chatsworth St
father a Carter
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Re: Hibbert/Prosser/Robinson Salford, Hulme, Manchester area

Postby ianbee » Mon Jan 29, 2018 2:32 pm

We could give him the signature test (a very inexact science)
Seems to have used a leaky pen on the second one.
Father John a Warehouseman on both
Ian
Attachments
Samuel Hibbert 1892.JPG
Samuel Hibbert 1892.JPG (15.39 KiB) Viewed 1160 times
Samuel Hibbert 1901.JPG
Samuel Hibbert 1901.JPG (17.93 KiB) Viewed 1160 times
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Re: Hibbert/Prosser/Robinson Salford, Hulme, Manchester area

Postby ianbee » Mon Jan 29, 2018 2:40 pm

School records include
Emily Hibbert, born 11.12.02
Lucy Hibbert, born 29.9.04
parent/guardian Samuel
address 31 Duke St
admitted 21.8.13, Manchester Gaythorn County Primary School
Transcript says admitted 1910, I don't know why.

March 1903 Manchester 8d 197
Hibbert, Emily
mother Robinson

There's a baptism of Lucy Hibbert, 12 Oct 1904, Hulme
Parents Samuel and Sarah Ellen. Father a Lorry man
Born 29th Sept 1904
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Re: Hibbert/Prosser/Robinson Salford, Hulme, Manchester area

Postby DianaCanada » Tue Jan 30, 2018 9:20 pm

Ianbee, thanks so much for your help. Certainly seems to be the same family...baffled by the census recorded as Crimes or Grimes. Now if I could just eliminate Samuel and Annie (or not). Starting to think they have gone overseas between censuses and he either deserted them (or Annie deserted him) or they both died.
Where did you find the certificates with his signature? Except for the capital H, the rest of the writing looks very similar - the "t" at the end of Hibbert certainly very alike and unusual.
Also the youngest child in the family on the 1911 is registered as Hibbert. Very weird.
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Re: Hibbert/Prosser/Robinson Salford, Hulme, Manchester area

Postby ianbee » Tue Jan 30, 2018 10:15 pm

Hi
I can't find Samuel or Annie in 1901
It does look to me like the same man signed those two marriages. They came from ancestry, but you can see the first marriage here (if logged in)
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903 ... at=1309893

So it looks like Samuel is alive and well in 1911 - only the address on Ellen's baptism found them!
I think it is probably Crimes, but why he used that name I don't know.
More school entries (same one as before) for Henry Hibbert, born 15.3.08, and Lily Hibbert, born 25.5.06. Father Sam, 31 Duke St
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Re: Hibbert/Prosser/Robinson Salford, Hulme, Manchester area

Postby DianaCanada » Fri Feb 02, 2018 2:50 pm

ianbee wrote:Hi
I can't find Samuel or Annie in 1901
It does look to me like the same man signed those two marriages. They came from ancestry, but you can see the first marriage here (if logged in)
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903 ... at=1309893

So it looks like Samuel is alive and well in 1911 - only the address on Ellen's baptism found them!
I think it is probably Crimes, but why he used that name I don't know.
More school entries (same one as before) for Henry Hibbert, born 15.3.08, and Lily Hibbert, born 25.5.06. Father Sam, 31 Duke St


Thank you for this, Ian. I've been able to find more info on Samuel's siblings now, happy to add to this branch of the tree.
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