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Richard James Aldred b. Manchester abt 1818

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Richard James Aldred b. Manchester abt 1818

Postby Sylcec » Sun Dec 03, 2017 1:34 am

Richard James ALDRED migrated to New South Wales as a Bounty immigrant leaving on the Marchioness of Bute 12 Sept 1841. I have him on the 1841 census as a cabinet maker - but of course not with family.
Am attaching his Bounty migration record, on which it seems to say that his parents were James and Elizabeth, and I think father 'alive' - what do you think?
There is no proof of baptism (sad) and think it says he was Calvinistic ? I had another with this description, and turned out to be Methodist in Australia.
Richard did well in Australia - but I am struggling to find proof of his date and place of birth and possible parents marriage in or around Manchester. I am disinclined to take the family in Leigh, but open to persuasion.
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Re: Richard James Aldred b. Manchester abt 1818

Postby junkers » Sun Dec 03, 2017 5:06 pm

You're right on your the details. The Manchester Record Office may have some ideas on birth/baptism records of Calvinists.
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Re: Richard James Aldred b. Manchester abt 1818

Postby AdrianB38 » Sun Dec 03, 2017 7:30 pm

1. "Calvinist" worries me for two reasons. Firstly, I can never remember which of the non-conformist churches subscribe(d) to Calvinism and secondly it is not generally a useful label since English churches are generally known as Presbyterian, Baptist, Congregational, etc, etc. - not Calvinist.

2. I looked for his parents' marriage in Lancs OPC, viz:
James Aldred (with name variants) and Elizabeth (with name variants) 1800 +/- 20y

There are just 3 (summarised)
Marriage: 2 Apr 1804 St Mary the Virgin, Leigh, Lancashire, England
James Aldred - Weaver, Leigh Parish
Betty Heys - (X), Spinster, Leigh Parish

Marriage: 20 Apr 1806 St Mary the Virgin, Deane, Lancashire, England
James Aldred - (X), Bachelor, this Parish [Deane]
Elizabeth Aspinall - (X), Spinster, this Parish [Deane]

Marriage: 18 Oct 1814 St Mary the Virgin, Leigh, Lancashire, England
James Aldred - Widower, Leigh Parish
Betty Mills - Spinster, Leigh Parish
(I have no opinion whether this is the same James)

Deane is apparently in Bolton parish.

3a. I looked for his parents' marriage in Ancestry, viz:
James Aldred (with name variants) and Elizabeth 1810 +/- 10y in Lancashire

That gives me the 1806 marriage again.

3b. I looked for his parents' marriage in Ancestry, viz:
James Aldred (with name variants) and Betty 1810 +/-10y (don't seem to be able to do a variants on the spouse...) in Lancashire

I get the 1804 and 1814 marriages again.

4. If I use Lancs OPC to search for all baptisms to James & Elizabeth Aldred 1820 +/- 20y, then there are 15 baptisms. (I'll not list them since I'm certain you can do that for yourself). There is an 1808 one at Atherton which is cited as coming from FamilySearch but has suspiciously few other details. Apart from that, they are all at St Mary the Virgin, Leigh. However, it is apparent that there are two families - at least.

James Aldred & Betty of Atherton start in 1804.
In 1806, they are James Aldred & Betty of Blakely, Manchester. (In 1813 this James is a husbandman). In there, of course, is this one:
Baptism: 1 Mar 1818 St Mary the Virgin, Leigh, Lancashire, England
Richard Aldred - Son of James Aldred & Betty
Abode: Blakely
Occupation: Husbandman


In 1820 she is called Elizabeth but it's the Blakely couple.
In 1823 they change from Blakely Manchester, to Collyhurst, Manchester.

In 1810 we get James Aldred & Elizabeth of Atherton. (In 1814 he is a spinner). Several entries. No idea who he is - is he the 1806 marriage? Why no earlier baptisms if so? Or are they just to James and no mother?

5. Blakely must be Blackley now - see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blackley
Blackley is a suburban area of the city of Manchester, England. Historically in Lancashire, it is 4 miles (6.4 km) north of Manchester city centre, by a meander of the River Irk


In summary - if you believe that his parents really are James and Elizabeth / Betty, as per the document, then there doesn't seem a lot of choice - bearing in mind that all other than Quakers and Jews had to marry in the Church of England. The actual place of abode in 1818 is just 4m from the city centre - it says. So the 1818 baptism does seem reasonable to me???

I would not like to swear that I knew that all Lancashire churches are in the combination of Lancs OPC and Ancestry - but I think the vast majority are by now.
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Re: Richard James Aldred b. Manchester abt 1818

Postby AdrianB38 » Sun Dec 03, 2017 7:35 pm

It's 14 miles from Blackley to Leigh according to Google Maps!
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Re: Richard James Aldred b. Manchester abt 1818

Postby ianbee » Sun Dec 03, 2017 8:42 pm

Coming at it another way - probably the wrong one!
Elizabeth (or Betty!) is dead by late 1841
James died later.

So, looking for a death/burial for the mother, not easy as it seems Aldred is a very common name in the area
One possibility, which is transcribed on Lancs OPC (image is also available online)
Sylcec wrote:turned out to be Methodist

27 December 1825, Cheetham Hill Chapel, Crumpsall
Eliz. Alldred (or Aldred as per transcript)
proprietor Jas. Alldred
township or parish Manchester
age 48 yrs
disorder - Decline

AdrianB38 wrote:In 1823 they change from Blakely Manchester, to Collyhurst, Manchester.

Was Thomas in Adrians fifteen baptisms?
buried at Cheetham Hill Chapel, 8 Feb 1824
Thomas Aldred
props James + Elizh. Aldred
township or parish Collyhurst
age 4 yrs
no. of grave 885

then, 19 October 1835
Abraham Aldred
prop James Aldred
township or parish Manchester
residence Red Bank
age 18 (?) yrs
no. of grave 885

Could he be the Abraham baptized at Leigh, 6 August 1815 (age would be two years out)

Not that many Aldreds buried at Cheetham.
On findmypast (so I haven't seen it yet!), Manchester Cemetery Records
at Manchester Cheetham Hill Wesleyan Cemetery
James Aldred, in 1853, age 77
(presumably the Dec 1853 registration, Manchester 8d 231)
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Re: Richard James Aldred b. Manchester abt 1818

Postby AdrianB38 » Sun Dec 03, 2017 9:54 pm

Was Thomas in Adrians fifteen baptisms?
buried at Cheetham Hill Chapel, 8 Feb 1824
Thomas Aldred
props James + Elizh. Aldred
township or parish Collyhurst
age 4 yrs
no. of grave 885


That's him - cf this from Lancs OPC
Baptism: 11 Jun 1820 St Mary the Virgin, Leigh, Lancashire, England
Thomas Aldred - Son of James Aldred & Elizabeth <This is the Blakely couple so the mother is normally Betty, AB>
Abode: Blakely Manchester
Occupation: Laborer
Baptised by: D. Birkett


And this burial:
19 October 1835
Abraham Aldred
prop James Aldred
township or parish Manchester
residence Red Bank
age 18 (?) yrs
no. of grave 885

Could he be the Abraham baptized at Leigh, 6 August 1815

Certainly looks like him - date, name, father all fits, and fits into James and Betty of Blakely. Their last baptism is Edward Henry on 9 August 1823, when they live at Collyhurst. Collyhurst fits the 1824 burial of Thomas at Cheetham Hill. That makes Eliz. Alldred's burial there in 1825 seem a good match.
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Re: Richard James Aldred b. Manchester abt 1818

Postby ianbee » Sun Dec 03, 2017 10:13 pm

AdrianB38 wrote:That makes Eliz. Alldred's burial there in 1825 seem a good match.

Well, hopefully. I read it that Elizabeth, likely mother of Thomas and Abraham, most probably died 1824-1835
But there isn't a grave number for the Elizabeth buried 1825. There is a grave register in existence.

Sylcec wrote:I have him on the 1841 census as a cabinet maker - but of course not with family.

He's in Lower Tebbut St, Manchester
Mary Benson 65
Mary Clark 15
then
William Tate 25
Richard Aldred 20 Cabinet Maker Y (born in county)

Which is piece 575 book 18 folio 19 page 33

which may not be far away in Manchester from
piece 575 book 21 folio 6 page 6
Collyhurst Clough
James Aldred 60 Ag Lab Yes (born in county)
Living on his own.

Not drawing any conclusions though!
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Re: Richard James Aldred b. Manchester abt 1818

Postby Sylcec » Sun Dec 03, 2017 11:07 pm

Well - thank you both Adrian and Ian. This all needs quite a bit of digesting.
Richard and family were certainly Wesleyan Methodist in Australia.

I have not used Lancs OPC - so will investigate and see what I can find.
Do I conclude Adrian, that you think the most likely marriage for the parents was the one on 20 April 1806 at St Mary the Virgin in Deane, Lancs?

Blakely (Blackley), Collyhurst, Cheetham Hill all look like interesting locations - remain puzzled by probable events at Leigh though - thank you for clarifying distance - 14miles!! No wonder that I couldn't easily find a proximity on [url]maps.familysearch.org[/url] when I looked yesterday.

Interesting that there are so many Aldreds around - it certainly must have been a local name as had not come across it before migrant Richard James Aldred.
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Re: Richard James Aldred b. Manchester abt 1818

Postby AdrianB38 » Sun Dec 03, 2017 11:25 pm

Sorry, no, I'm trying not to push you so not being clear. My opinion is that the best fit for everything is the 1804 marriage to Betty in Leigh.

At a wild guess, she might come from Leigh and that's why they go back there, over that distance.

The 1806 and 1814 marriages, I don't understand. The family with Elizabeth as a mother just seems to pop up out of nowhere with no earlier baptisms - it might be that there are earlier baptisms but the mother's name isn't mentioned. So, who knows, that family might be traceable back to the 1806 marriage.

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Re: Richard James Aldred b. Manchester abt 1818

Postby Sylcec » Mon Dec 04, 2017 9:13 am

OK - I have now extracted all the events from LancsOPC which might be relevant - in the end, I think I will just have to decide it "on the balance of probabilities"

Regarding the death/burial of James, age 77 at Cheetham Hill on 30 Oct 1853 - the plot was owned by James Aldred who was interred there; his address was St George's Road, Manchester, and he died of Asthma (in my opinion he probably had congestive heart failure - similar symptoms at that age).
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