Moderator Control Panel ]

Richard James Aldred b. Manchester abt 1818

A problem shared is a problem halved. Post your brick walls here and see whether you can offer advice to others

Re: Richard James Aldred b. Manchester abt 1818

Postby Sylcec » Mon Dec 04, 2017 9:48 am

So Adrian - the family lives at Blakley but has their children baptised at Leigh, is that what you're saying?
What does trouble me though, if we stick with the Leigh marriage (1804) is that we have to consider the possibility that the marriage of James Aldred the widower in 1814 to Betty Mills, also in Leigh is the same James, even though we haven't spotted a burial for Betty of the 1804 marriage. But looking at the baptisms - I have come round to your preference for the 1804 marriage, at least as James' first one.

Am I being particularly dumb here or missing something vital?
User avatar
Sylcec
 
Posts: 2509
Joined: Sun Aug 17, 2008 4:36 pm
Location: Sydney, Australia

Re: Richard James Aldred b. Manchester abt 1818

Postby AdrianB38 » Mon Dec 04, 2017 10:50 am

1. Yes, I reckon that that family lives at Blakely etc. but uses Leigh for baptisms.

2. The 1814 marriage worries me. It does happen that guys marry second wives of the same name as their first and it causes no end of confusion. However, given that we don't see a burial for the first wife, I wonder if this isn't yet another James who is remarrying in 1814? After all, if James 1 is really living in Blakely and is widowed, is it really likely that he'd find a 2nd wife in Leigh? Not impossible but... I can't remember the phasing of the children, but if James 1's wife really died prior to 1814 and a remarriage, wouldn't there be a noticeable gap between the children? I don't remember one but I'm just working off memory.

So my gut feeling is that the 1814 James is not James 1. Or, rather, I'd need a lot more convincing that he is. But I'm also saying all this from memory.

3. If you're missing something, so am I!

4. Incidentally, you or Ian mentioned not coming across the name Aldred before but it being common in this area. It's a phenomenon that I've met before. One of my ancestral families from this area was named Livesey. I expected it to be easy to trace such an unusual name - I thought. Turns out that there were loads of them in the area. With several variations in spelling depending on how many e's you put in.

Sent from my MotoG3 using WDYTYA Forum mobile app
Adrian
AdrianB38
 
Posts: 2514
Joined: Tue Jul 27, 2010 4:07 pm

Re: Richard James Aldred b. Manchester abt 1818

Postby ianbee » Mon Dec 04, 2017 12:55 pm

AdrianB38 wrote:In 1810 we get James Aldred & Elizabeth of Atherton. (In 1814 he is a spinner). Several entries. No idea who he is - is he the 1806 marriage?


Adrian, is it possible that it is the spinner man who married in 1804?
AdrianB38 wrote:Marriage: 2 Apr 1804 St Mary the Virgin, Leigh, Lancashire, England
James Aldred - Weaver, Leigh Parish
Betty Heys - (X), Spinster, Leigh Parish


then a baptism at Leigh
Joseph Aldred, 8 July 1804, parents James + Betty, of Atherton

followed at Chapelry of Atherton, Leigh, by
Richard, 6 April 1808, parents James + Elizabeth (Alred)

then later those baptisms at Leigh with father James (the spinner) + Elizabeth, of Atherton.

The other marriage
20 April 1806, Deane
James Aldred + Elizabeth Aspinall

followed by the baptism at Leigh
John Aldred, 25 May 1806
son of James + Betty of Blakely, Manch.

and so on
James being a Husbandman, Labourer,
and, if it's the right man, Ag Lab (1841), Gardener (1851)

There may be a relevant burial at the Chapelry of Blackley
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903 ... &cat=69918
15 May 1816
Mary Anne
Dau. of James + Elizabeth Aldred
abode Blackley, Husbandman
age 5 years

Where is her baptism though?
Ian
ianbee
 
Posts: 2284
Joined: Wed Jul 28, 2010 4:51 pm

Re: Richard James Aldred b. Manchester abt 1818

Postby AdrianB38 » Mon Dec 04, 2017 2:24 pm

Hmmm that might be a distinct possibility, Ian. I need to sit down later and match them up. I could have given too much credence to the Elizabeth / Betty angle.

Sent from my MotoG3 using WDYTYA Forum mobile app
Adrian
AdrianB38
 
Posts: 2514
Joined: Tue Jul 27, 2010 4:07 pm

Re: Richard James Aldred b. Manchester abt 1818

Postby AdrianB38 » Mon Dec 04, 2017 4:39 pm

Ian, I think your suggestion of the marriages going that way round is a better fit. I've just been trying to fit them all and this is what it looks like:

The Blakely lot:
(Possible marriage)
Marriage: 20 Apr 1806 St Mary the Virgin, Deane, Lancashire, England
James Aldred - (X), Bachelor, this Parish [Deane]
Elizabeth Aspinall - (X), Spinster, this Parish [Deane]
    Witness: James Ryley; James Smith
(For - matches up timewise. Against - why at Deane? Also against, Elizabeth as the name. But is that an issue since it's a different church? )


Baptism: 25 May 1806 St Mary the Virgin, Leigh, Lancashire, England
John Aldred - Son of James Aldred & Betty
    Abode: Blakely, Manchr.

Baptism: 30 Oct 1808 St Mary the Virgin, Leigh, Lancashire, England
Margaret Aldred - Daughter of James Aldred & Betty
    Abode: Blakely, Manchester
 
(So what happened in 1810/1811?   Possibly Mary Anne (d1816) was born?  )

Baptism: 7 Aug 1813 St Mary the Virgin, Leigh, Lancashire, England
James Aldred - Son of James Aldred & Betty
    Abode: Blakely
    Occupation: Husbandman
    
Baptism: 6 Aug 1815 St Mary the Virgin, Leigh, Lancashire, England
Abram Aldred - Son of James Aldred & Betty
    Abode: Blakely
    Occupation: Husbandman
(Possibly buried Cheetham Hill Oct 1835, according to Ian).

Burial: 15 May 1816 St Peter, Blackley, Lancashire, England
Mary Anne Aldred - daughter of James Aldred & Elizabeth
    Age: 5 years
    Abode: Blackley
    Occupation: Husbandman
(Possibly born in the gap circa 1811?)


Baptism: 1 Mar 1818 St Mary the Virgin, Leigh, Lancashire, England
Richard Aldred - Son of James Aldred & Betty
    Abode: Blakely
    Occupation: Husbandman
   
Baptism: 11 Jun 1820 St Mary the Virgin, Leigh, Lancashire, England
Thomas Aldred - Son of James Aldred & Elizabeth
    Abode: Blakely Manchester
    Occupation: Laborer
(Unusual to have Elizabeth but it's Blakely, labourer)
(Buried Cheetham Hill, 1824 according to Ian
)


Baptism: 9 Aug 1823 St Mary the Virgin, Leigh, Lancashire, England
Edward Henry Aldred - Son of James Aldred & Betty
    Abode: Collyhurst, Manchest
    Occupation: Labourer
 (added in here because it's Manchester, labourer, and Betty).

(From Ian)
Buried at Cheetham Hill Chapel, 8 Feb 1824
Thomas Aldred
props James + Elizh. Aldred
township or parish Collyhurst
age 4 yrs
(Bap June 1820. AB)
Adrian
AdrianB38
 
Posts: 2514
Joined: Tue Jul 27, 2010 4:07 pm

Re: Richard James Aldred b. Manchester abt 1818

Postby AdrianB38 » Mon Dec 04, 2017 4:45 pm

And now the Atherton / textile worker lot:
(Possible marriage)
Marriage: 2 Apr 1804 St Mary the Virgin, Leigh, Lancashire, England
James Aldred - Weaver, Leigh Parish
Betty Heys - (X), Spinster, Leigh Parish
    Witness: James Musket; Thomas Lees
(For - it's a textile occupation. And matches timewise. Against, it's Betty, not Elizabeth. But so is the 1804 baptism.)


Baptism: 8 Jul 1804 St Mary the Virgin, Leigh, Lancashire, England
Joseph Aldred - Son of James Aldred & Betty
    Abode: Atherton
(Added here because it says Atherton but note that name is Betty, not the usual Elizabeth - but the 1804 marriage is Betty so maybe it's OK.)

(So what happened in 1806? No child baptised?)


Baptism: 6 Apr 1808 St John the Baptist, Atherton, Lancashire, England
Richard Alred - Son of James Alred & Elizabeth
 (A bit bare in the  LancsOPC - no film etc. This is correct, however, as per PR on Ancestry. No occupation or abode. Because it is at Atherton Chapel, I will add it to the Atherton lot.)

Baptism: 28 Jul 1810 St Mary the Virgin, Leigh, Lancashire, England
Mary Aldred - Daughter of James Aldred & Elizabeth
    Abode: Atherton
  
Baptism: 1 Aug 1812 St Mary the Virgin, Leigh, Lancashire, England
Henry Aldred - Son of James Aldred & Elizabeth
    Abode: Atherton
(He dies 1815)


Baptism: 8 Oct 1814 St Mary the Virgin, Leigh, Lancashire, England
James Aldred - Son of James Aldred & Elizabeth
    Abode: Atherton
    Occupation: Spinner


Burial: 11 Jul 1815 St John the Baptist, Atherton, Lancashire, England
Henry Aldred - Son of James Aldred & Elizabeth
    Age: 2
    Abode: Atherton


Baptism: 16 Mar 1817 St Mary the Virgin, Leigh, Lancashire, England
Samuel Aldred - Son of James Aldred & Elizabeth
    Abode: Atherton
    Occupation: Spinner
  
(Possibly a gap here for John (b abt 1819/20, d1824)? )

Baptism: 1 Sep 1821 St Mary the Virgin, Leigh, Lancashire, England
Margaret Aldred - Daughter of James Aldred & Elizabeth
    Abode: Atherton
    Occupation: Spinner
(d Mar 1824)

Burial: 7 Mar 1824 St John the Baptist, Atherton, Lancashire, England
John Alldred - Son of James Alldred & Elizabeth
    Age: 4
    Abode: Atherton
(Possibly b in a gap circa 1819/20?)

Burial: 13 Mar 1824 St John the Baptist, Atherton, Lancashire, England
Margt. Alldred - Daughter of James Alldred & Elizabeth
    Age: 2
    Abode: Atherton
(Bap Sep 1821)
Adrian
AdrianB38
 
Posts: 2514
Joined: Tue Jul 27, 2010 4:07 pm

Re: Richard James Aldred b. Manchester abt 1818

Postby AdrianB38 » Mon Dec 04, 2017 4:57 pm

1. So there are gaps in both families where it looks like baptisms have been lost or the child was still-born, so never baptised or ... - but some of the gaps appear to match children born and later buried that are otherwise unexplained.

2. I cannot allocate these 2 items from LancsOPC
Baptism: 5 Mar 1815 St Mary the Virgin, Leigh, Lancashire, England
Thomas Aldred - Son of James Aldred & Betty
    Abode: Atherton
    Occupation: Farmer
(This is too soon after the last Atherton baptism in Oct 1814. And too close to the next Blakely one in August 1815!. Atherton should not be a farmer and is not usually Betty either.)
    
Marriage: 18 Oct 1814 St Mary the Virgin, Leigh, Lancashire, England
James Aldred - Widower, Leigh Parish
Betty Mills - Spinster, Leigh Parish
    Witness: James Lees; Timothy Taylor
(No gap in either lot of baptisms, so maybe no children and / or this James' first wife was not a Betty / Elizabeth. )

3. I imagine that the other burials that Ian found in Manchester are on Ancestry????

Thanks for the suggestion of the rearrangement of the marriages, Ian. I think it does look better.
Adrian
AdrianB38
 
Posts: 2514
Joined: Tue Jul 27, 2010 4:07 pm

Re: Richard James Aldred b. Manchester abt 1818

Postby ianbee » Mon Dec 04, 2017 5:34 pm

Adrian, that is a magnificent setting out of the situation. Sorry if I've made you do all that work!
The marriages do look better that way round, certainly hope it turns out to be the right way (or I will feel terribly guilty)
The one thing that is certain - there were two James and Betty/Elizabeth Aldreds having children baptized at Leigh, but only one of those couples married there.

AdrianB38 wrote:I cannot allocate these 2 items from LancsOPC
Baptism: 5 Mar 1815 St Mary the Virgin, Leigh, Lancashire, England
Thomas Aldred - Son of James Aldred & Betty
    Abode: Atherton
    Occupation: Farmer

Adrian I think you have found the answer to the riddle of the marriage of the widowed James in Leigh in 1814.

Marriage from Lancs OPC
9 Aug 1804 St Mary the Virgin, Leigh
James Allred, Farmer, Leigh Parish
Fanny Bennett, (X), Spinster, Leigh Parish

Then four baptisms at Leigh to James and Fanny Aldred, abode Atherton.
And a last one at St John the Baptist, Atherton, 5 Feb 1813, Amelia, daughter of James + Frances Allred. Abode Atherton. Father a Farmer.

On the same day, a burial
5 Feb 1813 St John the Baptist, Atherton
Frances Allred - Wife of James Allred
Abode: Atherton
Occupation: Farmer

So that would fit with the 1814 marriage to Betty, and the 1815 baptism you have found.

I've looked at the burial entry for James Aldred at Cheetham Hill in 1853, and am pleased to report that he has grave number 885 !
Of the earlier burials, findmypast have certainly indexed Elizabeth in 1825, but apparently not Thomas or Abraham. I guess they may be found anyway by going through the images? Haven't tried.
But they are also on FamilySearch - Thomas 8 Feb 1824 is here
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903 ... &cat=88335

ianbee wrote:The one thing that is certain - there were two James and Betty/Elizabeth Aldreds having children baptized at Leigh, but only one of those couples married there.

Well at least until James (the farmer?) married Betty in 1814!
Ian
ianbee
 
Posts: 2284
Joined: Wed Jul 28, 2010 4:51 pm

Re: Richard James Aldred b. Manchester abt 1818

Postby AdrianB38 » Mon Dec 04, 2017 6:23 pm

ianbee wrote:... Adrian I think you have found the answer to the riddle of the marriage of the widowed James in Leigh in 1814. ...

Well, you recognised it because I certainly didn't! Well done for spotting that and finding the other entries for Farmer James.

I take it that the later Manchester burials are in the Non-conformist stuff - RG4 and all that? Which appears to be online in several sites now?

Sent from my MotoG3 using WDYTYA Forum mobile app
Adrian
AdrianB38
 
Posts: 2514
Joined: Tue Jul 27, 2010 4:07 pm

Re: Richard James Aldred b. Manchester abt 1818

Postby ianbee » Mon Dec 04, 2017 6:49 pm

Hi Adrian
Yes, you are right. Ancestry have them
England & Wales, Non-Conformist and Non-Parochial Registers, 1567-1970
Name: Eliz Alldred
Birth Date: abt 1777
Event Type: Burial
Father: Jas Alldred
Death Date: abt 1825
Death Age: 48
Burial Date: 27 Dec 1825
Burial Place: Crumpsall, Lancaster, England
Denomination: Wesleyan
Class Number: RG 4
Piece Title: Piece 0817: Crumpsall, Cheetham Hill Chapel (Wesleyan), 1815-1837

Ian
ianbee
 
Posts: 2284
Joined: Wed Jul 28, 2010 4:51 pm

PreviousNext

Return to General research queries


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 9 guests