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Fletcher Hibbert Kernon (Manchester area)

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Fletcher Hibbert Kernon (Manchester area)

Postby DianaCanada » Fri Nov 17, 2017 3:43 pm

Would like to fill in some gaps about my ancestor’s sister, Harriet Hibbert. Earlier I posted a query about her daughter, Elizabeth Ann Fletcher Whitaker, who went to the U.S. and in the course of investigating that I ordered a death certificate of a Harriet Fletcher who had died in Oldham, Lancashire in 1876. I am satisfied that this is my Harriet, as she was the right age, and the informant was Elizabeth Ann Whitaker. Harriet was listed as the widow of William Fletcher, umbrella maker. I believe William and Harriet had a total of three sons as well as Elizabeth, John was b. ca 1849 and died 6 Sep 1873 and there were two who died as infants.
I have not been able to find William other than on his marriage record to Harriet. They married 15 Oct 1848, Eccles parish church, Eccles, Lancs. One of the witnesses was Charles Fletcher, the other Sarah Ashworth. William was listed as a striker.
I believe I have found William, age 15, in 1841 with father John, a journeyman smith, mother Sarah, and a number of siblings, including a Charles. He had two older brothers, also journeymen smiths, and he himself is listed the same way. The family lived at 16 Holgate Street, Hulme, Lancs., being an area my Hibberts lived in over a few generations, going back and forth between Hulme and Salford.
After this William disappears, although he must have been around to father John, Elizabeth Ann and the two sons who died young. He is definitely listed as the father on his daughter’s birth certificate.
In 1861 Harriet is living at 5 Sykes Court, Hulme with her son John, age 2. She is listed as married, but no sign of William. She has a visitor, Mary Kernon (?), age 40, washerwoman, b. Manchester. In 1861 Harriet and Mary Kernon are living next door to each other on Pitt Street, Hulme. Harriet has her two children, John and Elizabeth Ann with her and a lodger, Ellen Leonard, 19.
In 1871 Harriet is with Joseph and Elizabeth Shenton at 23 Melbourne Street, Hulme. She is then listed as a widow and working as a piecer. Her daughter, married to John Whitaker by this point, is with her but without John.

I would like to track down William Fletcher but his common name and lack of exact age and bp (other than Lancashire) are a problem. Would a striker/smith later work as an umbrella maker, as described on Harriet’s death record?
I have also wondered if Mary Kernon (Kiernan?) was a relative - I have no information on Harriet’s mother, my ancestor, whose name was Ann and died between 1825 and 1828 (married to Joseph Hibbert).
I have looked at the Shentons but see no obvious connection to my family, but again, they might be related to Ann or even Joseph Hibbert who is a brick wall.
Any help with William Fletcher or Mary Kernon very much appreciated!
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Re: Fletcher Hibbert Kernon (Manchester area)

Postby ciderdrinker » Sat Nov 18, 2017 11:35 am

Hello
Let's start with a list of their children as William must have been around until then.
John Sep qtr 1849 Chorlton

Elizabeth Ann Sep qtr 1852 Chorlton born 10th July bapt 2 Aug 1852 at Hulme Christ Church of Ann St(A non conformist chapel)

Edwin Dec 1854 Chorlton bapt 11.1.1855 at Hulme HT 13 Nelson St father machine minder.Buried St George 7.5.1858 having died the 4th from Inflamation of the brain at 5 Victoria St Hulme age 3.

Thomas June 1857 Chorlton Bapt 22.5.1857 at Hulme according to Familysearch but I've tried HT and St George and no luck.But he was buried at Hulme st George of convulsions from 51 Lancaster St age 1yr 8mths. Died 8 Jan 1859 son of William and Harriet.

Right up to 1859 William is shown alongside his wife.
1851 is Sykes Crt and Harriet is married
1861 is Pitt st and Harriet is a widow

So William must have died Jan 1859 - June qtr 1861 or if he died before Thomas's birth May 1857-June 1861.
There is a William Fletcher died in Chorlton Dec 1860 age 33 Vol8c page 422
That's the man I'd be taking a closer look at.
It looks like on John's marriage at St Johns Manchester 30 Oct 1870 to Isabella Gately William is described as a labourer.Witnesses Elizabeth Ann Fletcher and Thomas Sands.
So William changes job a lot.

It looks like William was born 1826-1827 son of John and Sarah Fletcher.

The 1851 census for John and Sarah gives a bit more .
They are at Leaf St Hulme age 55 and 56 from Manchester and Coventry
Children Isabella 17 is from Liverpool,Mary Ann 12 Manchester ,Sarah 23 (Dillon) Warrington.
Sarah is a year younger than William so perhaps a look at Warrington area.

Ciderdrinker
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Re: Fletcher Hibbert Kernon (Manchester area)

Postby ciderdrinker » Sat Nov 18, 2017 11:46 am

Hi me again
Alfred Fletcher baptised Cavendish st Indep Chapel Manchester -Chorlton cum Medlock 12 Oct 1823 to John and Sarah.Born 23rd March 1823.Father smith
Thomas 1 May 1821/17 June 1821 same chapel
No sign of William.

There is a Mary Ann Fletcher born Sep 1838 Chorton mother Blundell which would fit William's sister so I would go for the following marriage at Prestwich St Mary 29.4.1817
John Fletcher and Sarah Blundel of Oldham by banns
wit John Blundell and Edward Redford.

Ciderdrinker
Last edited by ciderdrinker on Sat Nov 18, 2017 12:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Fletcher Hibbert Kernon (Manchester area)

Postby sdup26 » Sat Nov 18, 2017 11:59 am

Re: Mary Kernon - In 1851, she's described as 'married' and in 1861, she's 'widow' so if we assume that her husband died between 1851-61, there's a death for a John Kernon SQ 1852, Manchester 8d 227 aged 36 (born c1816).
And this may (or may not!) relate to them, but there's a marriage at St Mary, M/C, in 1838, between John Kiernon of Fleet St, M/C, father James, engineer, and Mary Brownlow of Owen St, Hulme, father Robert, a porter. (On the www.lan-opc.org.uk site)
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Re: Fletcher Hibbert Kernon (Manchester area)

Postby ciderdrinker » Sat Nov 18, 2017 1:17 pm

On the Hibberts
Elizabeth Hibbert 11 .5 1828 Manchester Cathedral d of Joseph and Ann Hibbert of Hulme dyer.
I presume you have William 12.6.1820 and Harriot 11.7.1824 from Salford also baptised there.
The first child with new wife Ellen is Samuel 18.12 1831 again from Hulme.
Joseph is born 1799 is indexed as born Somerset and Ellen 1803 on the 1851 census at Salford Thomas St 45
Although the 1841 gives Lancashire for both.Looking at the 1851 census the place names are given first and then the cty---so Somerset must be the place name in ??? presumably Lancashire.I think it's Si ??m?
He married his second wife Ellen Clare at the Cathedral 20th July 1829 so a very tight window for Ann's death.(witnesses George Kilgour and Thomas Parry)

It looks like Ann died and was buried 21.9.1828 wife of Joseph age 20 at the chapel of Hollinwood Prestwich.(And yes it definitely says 20)
This might suggest that the marriage at Prestwich st Mary 14.11.1819 to Ann Lees was theirs.
witnesses Edward Redford and J G Kirkbank
Obviously this makes them 20 and 11 when they married which is pushing it quite a lot.
An it turns out from other records Joseph was a hatter so not that one.(he's the one baptised at Hollinwood Sep 1796 s of George and Betty).

An alternative would be the Ann Hibbert age 31 died of consumption buried at Rusholme RD Cemetery Chorlton cum Medlock on 2nd Feb 1829 which would maker her about the same age as Joseph.(Perhaps the full records would have more but the address of Hulme fits.)

It looks like Joseph Died at Salford Sep 1852 age 53 vol8D 48 so born 1799/8.

So Joseph and Ann probably both come from Manchester area ,is there somewhere local that could look like Somerset?

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Re: Fletcher Hibbert Kernon (Manchester area)

Postby DianaCanada » Sat Nov 18, 2017 3:22 pm

Ciderdrinker, thanks so much for your help. Will deal with the Hibberts first. This is my father's direct paternal line, we are descended from William, as you mentioned, first child of Joseph and Ann. I too have only ever found the two sisters, Harriet/Harriot and Elizabeth, and then his second marriage to Ellen Clare (b. Warrington, ca 1804, dau. of Henry Clare, married Richard Hawthornthwaite after Joseph's death, she died, wife of....cannot find her in censuses after 1851.)
I have been on Joseph`s trail for over two decades now, have never found his baptism. I have some DNA link ups on Ancestry, the more recent ones I can figure out, there are earlier Hibbert links that might tie in to him but nothing I can prove yet.
There is another marriage that might fit, Joseph to Nanny Riding, think it was Prestwich. Only one I can come up with. I have traced his children as best I can, a couple remain elusive.
The Kilgour name pops up several times in relation to the family, as witnesses or informants, but have not linked them as blood relatives...and they might be Ellen Clare`s relatives. A Kilgour was the informant on her death.
I do not (emphatically) believe Joseph was born in county Somerset. I have puzzled over that entry for years. The Hibbert name is not uncommon in Cheshire, Lancashire and into Derbyshire. I don`t believe it occurs much in southwest England. The first letter might be an S or it might be an L. Salford was a stomping ground of Joseph and his family, but I don`t think it is Salford.
Other than finding my missing grandfather on my mother`s side, this is the brick wall I would like to knock down the most. There are several possible reasons I can`t find Joseph - illegitimacy, nonconformity, Catholicism! His missing marriage also seems to be a mystery, though the Nanny Riding one looks good, as I can`t find another couple that fits.
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Re: Fletcher Hibbert Kernon (Manchester area)

Postby DianaCanada » Sat Nov 18, 2017 3:25 pm

Thank you for the information you provided on William Fletcher, Ciderdrinker. Looks like you have narrowed him down for me. I had found the two younger boys on the BMD lists (with the mother`s surname) but had not found the church records.
I will try looking for William again in 1851, perhaps using just William, b. Warrington, and his approximate age. Interesting that Harriet`s stepmother was from Warrington too, maybe the families knew each other, or she is related to them somehow.
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Re: Fletcher Hibbert Kernon (Manchester area)

Postby DianaCanada » Sat Nov 18, 2017 3:29 pm

sdup26 wrote:Re: Mary Kernon - In 1851, she's described as 'married' and in 1861, she's 'widow' so if we assume that her husband died between 1851-61, there's a death for a John Kernon SQ 1852, Manchester 8d 227 aged 36 (born c1816).
And this may (or may not!) relate to them, but there's a marriage at St Mary, M/C, in 1838, between John Kiernon of Fleet St, M/C, father James, engineer, and Mary Brownlow of Owen St, Hulme, father Robert, a porter. (On the http://www.lan-opc.org.uk site)


Thank you sdup26. I will have a look at these and perhaps get John`s death record while the PDF availability continues. Will also try to find him on the 1851. Maybe he is off wandering around with William Fletcher!
Owen Street, Hulme has certainly come up in my searches over the years. I have looked at Hulme so often I have probably seen most of the streets listed!
It is of course possible that Mary is related to Harriet Hibbert Fletcher, but might be hard to prove as I don`t know much about Harriet`s parents.
I do find these city folk from the early 19th century much more of a challenge than my country folk of the same time period!
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Re: Fletcher Hibbert Kernon (Manchester area)

Postby DianaCanada » Sat Nov 18, 2017 4:16 pm

I have just found a John, indexed as Keanion, could be Kernion, Kearnin, etc...living at Bk. Queen St., Manchester, listed as son of lodger James, but John's marital status not given. James was a widower, labourer, b. Ireland. John is an engineer and b. Manchester.
Interestingly just two families later at Williams Court, Queen St., is Joseph Kilgour and his wife Lydia, nee Atherton. I mentioned there are several Kilgour connections. This will probably confuse issues, but Jane Atherton was my ancestor William Hibbert's mother in law. At one point Lydia lived very near Jane. They were both born in Liverpool. My theory was that L might be Jane's illegitimate daughter. Jane married John Feay and their daughter Mary married William Hibbert.
Lydia's daughter and a daughter of William's married brothers.
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Re: Fletcher Hibbert Kernon (Manchester area)

Postby caihooves » Wed Dec 19, 2018 3:00 am

Hi
Did anyone find out about the Kilgours? I
Am related and doing my tree thanks
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