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Mann Family in Canada

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Re: Mann Family in Canada

Postby DianaCanada » Mon Oct 02, 2017 2:03 pm

DianaCanada wrote:I checked the three Herbert J. Manns born around the time frame, all were born in 1920:
Herbert J. mother maiden name Evans, Portsmouth Mar 1920
Herbert J. mother Cullam, Lewisham Jun 1920
Herbert J. mother Neath, Wem district Dec 1920

I could not find an Ellen matching those maiden names marrying a Mann. It is possible that Ellen was a widow when she married Herbert's father so I would need to know her first marriage.

Just edited this to fix the surname to the correct Cullam which I had typed Cullum.


I looked at children born to Mann-Evans, only 1 child, Herbert born in Portsmouth
children born to Mann-Cullam - only one child, Herbert, b. Lewisham
children to to Mann-Neath - four younger children, b. 1934, 36, and 40, b. Eccleshall B. and Sheffield.

Ellen may have remarried, although I don't see a logical one around Portsmouth. His siblings may be half-siblings. Interesting that his obit only mentions her as Ellen.
I think you might have to purchase Herbert and Irene (Hibberd)'s marriage certificate and find out who his father was and then work back to the marriage of his parents and work out if there was another marriage for Ellen and if the siblings were from another marriage.
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Re: Mann Family in Canada

Postby woodchal » Mon Oct 02, 2017 3:34 pm

There is a Lorna Mann on ancestry that would appear to be searching a similar family line. I have sent her a message pointing out your post on this forum - I hope she gets in touch

I have had a look at records on ancestry.com and it appears to me that Arthur Allan Mann, a Canadian soldier in WW1 married Ellen Frances Mary Pragnell (nee Newman) who was the widow of Frederick Charles Pragnell (died 1916).

Ellen went to Canada after the war to join her husband and then criss crossed the Atlantic over the next few years. Once in 1926 with Herbert. In 1957 she travelled from Canada to UK, giving status as Single (probably divorced). Others have noted that the separation may have been as early as 1933. Was she travelling back in 1926 with Herbert on the break up of the marriage.

So did Arthur marry again? could Herbert's mysterious siblings actually be half siblings? What is the significance of the second surname Vidamour on the memorial? What is the death recorded in Portsmouth?

Good luck
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Re: Mann Family in Canada

Postby woodchal » Mon Oct 02, 2017 3:41 pm

Ellen's two marriages

1.
Name Ellen F M Newman
Registration Year 1911
Registration Quarter Oct-Nov-Dec
Registration district Petersfield
Parishes for this Registration District Petersfield
Inferred County Hampshire
Volume 2c
Page 367
Household Members
Name Age
Gwendoline Cozens
William S Hushar
Ellen F M Newman
Frederick C Pragnell


2. Name Ellen F M
Date of Registration 1918 - Apr-May-Jun[1918]
Registration district Petersfield
Inferred County Hampshire
Spouse Arthur A
Volume Number 2c
Page number 377
Pragnell, Mann - 2c 377
Household Members
Name Age
Arthur A Mann
Ellen F M Pragnell
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Re: Mann Family in Canada

Postby juantuss » Mon Oct 02, 2017 10:17 pm

Diana and woodchal thanks again for your further input into trying to solve my brick wall over the Mann family. I am now getting more doubtful and am beginning to think I may have got things a bit confused. However there are a number of points already identified which suggests the family mentioned in the obituary is the correct one although there is the question of Herbert's siblings to be resolved.

Here is some further information which may help to tie the right man down. Herbert's mother was Ellen Frances Mary Newman and her marriage to Arthur Allen Mann was her second marriage. Her first marriage took place on the 26th December 1911 when she married Frederick Charles Pragnell. Frederick died in 1916 and Ellen subsequently married Arthur Mann on the 3rd June 1918 in Petersfield, Hampshire. Arthur was a Sergeant in the 31st Canadian Infantry who had been posted over here during WW1.

After the war Arthur returned to Canada and Ellen followed him in 1919. I have found a record that Ellen came back to England in August 1926 with her son Herbert aged 5 which suggests a year of birth of 1920/21. Could it be that Herbert was born in Canada? He married Irene Hibberd in Petersfield on the 10th September 1949 and his marriage certificate shows his age as 28 and his father's name was given as Arthur Allen Mann. This together with the age and information in the obituary indicates that I have got the right family just not the right Herbert John Mann's date of birth. If Herbert was born in Canada then it is possible that he did have other siblings born there of which I had no way of identifying them.

Diana thank you for your advice on where I could possibly find details of his children's birth registrations. It looks like I have a lot more work to do to verify the right details but at least you are both pointing me in the right direction.
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Re: Mann Family in Canada

Postby juantuss » Mon Oct 02, 2017 10:35 pm

Diana and woodchal, my apologies as I have just replied to your previous postings without realising that there was a second page with your further postings and it seems you have already done further research and provided information which I have duplicated in my response.

woodchal yes it appears there are a lot of questions to be answered and I am grateful to you for contacting Lorna Mann. I will keep checking my messages in hopeful anticipation that she will reply. Without having direct access to records in Canada I think it will be rather difficult to find out the full details however I appreciate the help and advice you and Diana have provided so far. However I like a challenge and am hopeful I will get there in the end.
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Re: Mann Family in Canada

Postby juantuss » Tue Oct 03, 2017 8:18 pm

I have taken the opportunity to talk to my sister regarding this earlier today and she can recall Herbert and Irene having nine children (eight girls and one boy) and that the boy's name was Gary. This all ties up with the obituary so I am certain that this is the right man. She was not aware of Herbert having any siblings either but she did have a vague recollection of him not being the natural child of Arthur and Ellen. She believes he was adopted which if true blows my assumption of the Herbert John Mann born on the 22nd January 1920 as being the right person out of the window. The plot thickens!!
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Re: Mann Family in Canada

Postby DianaCanada » Tue Oct 03, 2017 8:41 pm

I asked my son, who still lives in CP, if he knows or knew any Manns. He did mention one, she would be about 30. I don't know if she was a school mate or someone he knows now, or both. His girlfriend who has also lived there all her life, doesn't know of any. My daughters were no help either. One of was friendly with an Adey girl, but her mother's name was not Hazel.
I have to tell you my Mann-Canada story! My parents were both from England, mum from Sussex. One of her distant great great aunts married a Mann in Sussex and their son went to British Columbia, to the Vancouver area. I found his death date in a BC death index, it might have on Family Search.
My daughters happened to be living in suburban Vancouver at the time and I asked them if they would go to the library and find an obit. They did, scanned it, and emailed it to me. When I read it, I could hardly believe it, for he had lived next door to the house they were in at the time, in Surrey, BC! The Vancouver area population is pretty big - the odds were astounding. You just never know what coincidences will happen in your family history journey!
When I first saw your query header I thought it might be about my Mann relatives. When I saw it was about Carleton Place, I was floored. It's a small town, after all, less than 10,000 people.
Good luck with untangling your puzzle.
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Re: Mann Family in Canada

Postby juantuss » Tue Oct 03, 2017 9:11 pm

Diana thanks for checking with your family as to whether they knew any members of the family. It seems a coincidence that they know of people with the same names but it's a shame they don't match up. I suppose the situation is further complicated by the fact that with only one male child this would be the only family to show the Mann surname. If all the girls married then they would have completely different surnames so unless I can trace their marriages then the task becomes even harder.

I have had one further thought - if Herbert was indeed adopted as my sister believes the could his birth name be Vidamour hence the entry on the headstone? Another avenue to explore I think.

I was intrigued by your Mann-Canada story. As you say it's amazing what coincidences come to light when exploring your family history. I suppose that's what makes genealogy such an exciting hobby. There is one unconnected coincidence. I live in Hampshire which is the next county to Sussex.

Many thanks again for your valuable advice and local knowledge and I hope to be able to progress my search further based on your suggestions. Best regards
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Re: Mann Family in Canada

Postby woodchal » Tue Oct 03, 2017 11:37 pm

I have a question that Diane might be able to help with - I think Canadian Headstones follow a format and I suspect that the name in brackets after Herbert's name might imply something.

Is it his mother's maiden name or is it related to adoption or is it something else. If it is a mother's maiden name then we know its not right but perhaps this is the mother of his "6 siblings" and someone just included him as they didn't know better - he would have been the oldest.
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Re: Mann Family in Canada

Postby DianaCanada » Tue Oct 03, 2017 11:52 pm

woodchal wrote:I have a question that Diane might be able to help with - I think Canadian Headstones follow a format and I suspect that the name in brackets after Herbert's name might imply something.

Is it his mother's maiden name or is it related to adoption or is it something else. If it is a mother's maiden name then we know its not right but perhaps this is the mother of his "6 siblings" and someone just included him as they didn't know better - he would have been the oldest.


I honestly don't think there is a specific format to Canadian headstones, though other Canadian researchers might disagee...please feel free to do so! :D
My best guess is that the other name on Herbert's headstone may be a birth name.
Obtaining his death certificate might clear up his parentage. His wife was the most likely informant and she probably knew something about his parentage.
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