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Clara Maria Duncan born 1858

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Re: Clara Maria Duncan born 1858

Postby Sucher » Fri Aug 18, 2017 9:16 pm

I have made progress of sorts.
1. Clara and Nancy Gray are on the 1911 census, still at 52 Star Street - no husband
2. Death of Clara Maria Gray was registered December Qtr 1931. Forenames fit, place fits, age fits.

However, I cannot find any marriage between Clara and Edward Gray. Did he do a runner? Neither can I find any registration of the birth of Nancy aged 8 in 1901 and 18 in 1911. Presumably, Clara and Edward didn't get around to marrying and Nancy's birth never registered. I cannot trace her marriage either.

As ever, many thanks. I have one more Duncan sister mystery to solve. Watch this space!

S
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Re: Clara Maria Duncan born 1858

Postby ianbee » Sat Aug 19, 2017 9:23 am

There's a school record in Marylebone
Nancy Grey
admitted 7 April 1902
address 52 Star Street
parent Mr Grey
born 25.11.94

A baptism at St Michael & All Angels, Paddington, 20 January 1895
Sarah Ann
parents Francis + Clara Maria Gray
abode 20 Cambridge Place
father a Coachman
born Nov 25 1894

Edward Gray was a coachman in 1891!
Ian
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Re: Clara Maria Duncan born 1858

Postby ianbee » Sat Aug 19, 2017 9:31 am

A marriage at St Mary Paddington, 12 March 1916
Frederick William Sidders, 29, Bachelor, Motor Driver
+
Sarah Annie Gray, 22, Spinster, father Ephraim Francis Gray, Soldier
residence for both 4 Fulham Place
witnessed by Ernest W Tew

Thank goodness Ernest was there!
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Re: Clara Maria Duncan born 1858

Postby ianbee » Sat Aug 19, 2017 11:17 am

JMcKinnon wrote:Maybe the 1911 Ephraim is a different man. He seems a bit old.
However Ephraim Francis Gray dies 1917. Acting Bombardier. Effects to Clara M. Gray

He does seem old to have been a WW1 casualty!
Age 58, husband of C. M. Gray, of 4, Fulham Place, Harrow Rd., Paddington.

Ties in with him being a soldier on Sarah's marriage record.
Well, that was unexpected, I thought she had made it up!
"Edward" Gray in 1891 was 26. There is a birth reg of an Ephraim Francis Gray in Billericay district in June qtr 1863.
Baptized at North Benfleet, 31 May 1863, and BT is available
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1 ... cat=488106
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Re: Clara Maria Duncan born 1858

Postby Sucher » Sun Aug 20, 2017 12:18 pm

Hello Ian & Jo & trace

I deeply appreciate your help which has been invaluable. I followed through your comments and findings and it seems as if Clara & Ephraim Gray were to all intents and purposes, husband and wife although I still cannot find a marriage. Also, I cannot find what happened to Nancy, their daughter after the 1911 census. I found Ephraim's grave via the CWG site and he was indeed 58 when he died. The inscription says "To my beloved Husband".

Who Edward Gray was (1891 census), we'll probably never know but the likely hood is that coming from Essex, he was related to Ephraim? I found another child of Clara's son Ernest William Tew, Stanley Maurice born in 1915. From here I have traced his descendants and have found what I hope are living relatives. More to do and the lawn to mow, thanks again.

S

PS Thanks to your previous help, I now have photo of her sister Sarah Himalaya who was the subject of an earlier post.
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Re: Clara Maria Duncan born 1858

Postby ianbee » Mon Aug 21, 2017 9:27 pm

Hi
I would say that Sarah Annie is Nancy, and that Ephraim Francis Gray is the Edward of 1891.
They don't make it easy for us!

I don't know the ins and outs of how that extra info came into the hands of the CWGC. If anyone can enlighten us, please do.
But if a soldier has no age given on there, then it has seemed to me, likely as not, there will be no relations noted.
I was under the impression it was compiled in the early 1920s. For example, addresses given for wives, mums and dads, may not necessarily be where they were living when the soldier died, but somewhat later ones (and even surnames may be different for the ladies)
Perhaps the age given for Ephraim - 58 - was how old he would have been in, say, 1921, rather than when he died in 1917.
In other words, a mix up by the informant!
But I may be completely wrong about all this.
And of course his age was out in the 1911 census in Marylebone.
Ian
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Re: Clara Maria Duncan born 1858

Postby AdrianB38 » Tue Aug 22, 2017 6:43 am

Re the CWGC information: I don't know if or where I've seen any exact information but my impression is the same as yours, Ian, if it helps. The CWGC (the Imperial War Graves Commission then) must surely have tried to contact the next of kin to obtain the supplemental information. I have the idea from looking at the extra images on the CWGC site, that the family were given the opportunity to choose a verse to go on the stone, for instance.

As an incidental, there's also the Soldiers Died in the Great War publication (on Ancestry and FMP???) plus for a few major cities those Rolls of the Great War (Ancestry) - though the latter attempted to cover everyone. The former seems to list all those who died with optional information from relatives - different text, I might add. The latter seems to rely on relatives' contributions but I do remember finding an entry in there for a surviving soldier from Manchester that was less than truthful. It listed where he'd been but the middle section simply wasn't true - his paperwork survives and show that he was in hospital in India for that time! I do wonder if some soldiers were given certificates by their regiments about where the unit had been during the war. Apparently my grandpa had such a piece of paper listing where his Artillery Brigade had deployed - long since lost. It might be that the erroneous entry simply copied this data.

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Re: Clara Maria Duncan born 1858

Postby ianbee » Tue Aug 22, 2017 10:58 am

Thanks Adrian.
You seem lucky to me to have found one soldier in those books, I never have. They are no good for me, as they don't go West Ham way, but I have looked in them for queries such as someone looking for John Smith of Bradford, what did he do in the war. Not a single one has ever turned up in them! One day, perhaps....
Ian
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Re: Clara Maria Duncan born 1858

Postby Sucher » Tue Aug 22, 2017 7:01 pm

ianbee wrote:Hi
I would say that Sarah Annie is Nancy, and that Ephraim Francis Gray is the Edward of 1891.
They don't make it easy for us!

I don't know the ins and outs of how that extra info came into the hands of the CWGC. If anyone can enlighten us, please do.
But if a soldier has no age given on there, then it has seemed to me, likely as not, there will be no relations noted.
I was under the impression it was compiled in the early 1920s. For example, addresses given for wives, mums and dads, may not necessarily be where they were living when the soldier died, but somewhat later ones (and even surnames may be different for the ladies)
Perhaps the age given for Ephraim - 58 - was how old he would have been in, say, 1921, rather than when he died in 1917.
In other words, a mix up by the informant!
But I may be completely wrong about all this.
And of course his age was out in the 1911 census in Marylebone.
Ian


Hi Ian

I found (and lost) a record that stated that Ephraim died at Netley, near Southhampton. Apparently this was a receiving hospital for wounded soldiers. I also found another record stating he was the husband of C M Gray. See attachment. In the case of my grandfather, he died in Brighton in 1918, his wife was with him so perhaps that was the case here.
Attachments
Screen Shot 2017-08-22 at 19.53.30.png
Screen Shot 2017-08-22 at 19.53.30.png (131.6 KiB) Viewed 577 times
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Re: Clara Maria Duncan born 1858

Postby ianbee » Tue Aug 22, 2017 7:16 pm

Hi
Well, you are right. From FreeBMD
Death, June 1917 S. Stoneham 2c 106
Gray, Eph[r_]aim
age 58

No wonder I missed that in the Ephraim Gray searches!
Yes he was 58 on that, so all my speculation was in vain.
Buried at Paddington Old Cemetery.
Here's his medal roll index card
https://www.ancestry.co.uk/interactive/ ... PUBJs=true
I still believe he must be the Ephraim Francis from North Benfleet!
Ian
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