Moderator Control Panel ]

The Lucas family from Islington

A problem shared is a problem halved. Post your brick walls here and see whether you can offer advice to others

The Lucas family from Islington

Postby Jenaheldd » Wed Aug 09, 2017 4:50 pm

This branch of my family is not straight forward and I have some missing info that is driving me a bit nuts, so I wondered if someone else could help

Walter Lucas (my 2nd ggf) b. 1821 Bermondsey d. abt 1874 Islington. Occupation throughout is listed as coach painter/painter or a version of this.
Possibly married a Mary – they had 2 children:
Walter b. 1846 Marylebone d. 1851 & Thomas William b. 1849 Marylebone d. 1931 Islington

- Walter, Mary and Walter Jnr show up in the workhouse in 1848, their home address is given as 10 Great James Street
- When Walter Jnr is buried in 1851, they’re living at Hereford Street, Marylebone
- On the 1851 census, its Walter, Mary and Thomas and they’re still in Marylebone
- On the 1861 census, its Walter and Thomas. Walter is listed as a widower and they’re visiting someone in Bermondsey

I checked on the GRO site and both Walter and Thomas are listed with a mothers maiden name of Allen, but I can’t find a marriage between a Walter Lucas and a Mary Allen. I’d like to find this, if it exists.

In 1866 Walter remarries – Lucy Seymour (my 2nd ggm) (1842 Yeovil – 1922 Islington)
They go on to have 4 kids born between the years 1864 and 1870

- 1871 census Walter and Lucy, stepson Thomas & new kids are living in St Peter Street, Islington
- Walter dies Jan 1874 and his address on the burial register is still St Peter Street

Now it gets interesting ….. According to the 1911 census, Lucy is married to a Thomas William Lucas, who I believe – unless I’ve gone really, really wrong – is her step son.

The census says they’ve been married for 44 years, which would give a marriage date of 1867, which can’t be right. I can’t find a marriage entry so I’m guessing they may not have actually married, but they had 6 kids born between the years of 1872 and 1887. Note - the first child is born in 1872 while her husband Walter is still alive. Their second child is a boy, born 1874 and they called him Walter - guessing he may have been named after Walter senior.

I’ve gone round in circles with Lucy marrying her step son, but both their DoB and place of birth ties to earlier known details, so I am reasonably sure this is right, but I’d love someone else to take a look. Would also be interested to see if there is a marriage for Walter Senior and his first wife and then Lucy to Thomas.
Jenaheldd
 
Posts: 115
Joined: Fri May 29, 2015 3:43 pm

Re: The Lucas family from Islington

Postby sdup26 » Wed Aug 09, 2017 6:00 pm

Both boys were baptised Christ Church, St Marylebone on the same day - August 10th 1849, parents Walter, painter, and Mary. But which Mary? Mary McLachlan in 1840, by licence (GRO ref JQ 1840 St Pancras 1 238) or Walter Lucas to either Mary Ann Lee/Mary Ann Poole, SQ 1844, St Luke, 2 321? But as you say, on the birth entries of both boys, mother's maiden name is Allen. Maybe a marriage outside London? Or no marriage at all?
sdup26
 
Posts: 1483
Joined: Tue Apr 19, 2011 4:34 pm

Re: The Lucas family from Islington

Postby Jenaheldd » Wed Aug 09, 2017 6:29 pm

I originally thought it was Mary Mclaclan until I checked the GRO & say the different maiden name. I then relooked at the marriage entry & it said Walter was from Londonderry & was a banker! I will double check the others you mention & check again outside London in case I have missed something
Jenaheldd
 
Posts: 115
Joined: Fri May 29, 2015 3:43 pm

Re: The Lucas family from Islington

Postby sdup26 » Thu Aug 10, 2017 10:22 am

I think I'm right in saying that at the time we're dealing with, a man couldn't marry his stepmother - and a woman couldn't marry her stepson - which would mean that you shouldn't be able to find a marriage between Thomas and Lucy.
Last edited by sdup26 on Thu Aug 10, 2017 1:50 pm, edited 2 times in total.
sdup26
 
Posts: 1483
Joined: Tue Apr 19, 2011 4:34 pm

Re: The Lucas family from Islington

Postby Jenaheldd » Thu Aug 10, 2017 10:42 am

Ah, good point - I hadn't even thought of that! And with them having the same surname already and being of similar age, it was probably very easy to get away with saying they were married.
Jenaheldd
 
Posts: 115
Joined: Fri May 29, 2015 3:43 pm

Re: The Lucas family from Islington

Postby sdup26 » Thu Aug 10, 2017 5:44 pm

There doesn't seem to be a marriage for Walter to Mary, nor one for Walter to Lucy. Maybe he's a serial offender, but before we misjudge him, is it possible Lucy was always with Thomas, despite the censuses saying she's the 'wife' of William, which just might be due to incorrect recording. The GRO birth index doesn't help, because all the children are shown with father surname Lucas and mother surname Seymour, but do you have birth certificates for the youngest - for example, William b1864, and/or Maria b1867? If so, do they give William as the father?
sdup26
 
Posts: 1483
Joined: Tue Apr 19, 2011 4:34 pm

Re: The Lucas family from Islington

Postby Jenaheldd » Thu Aug 10, 2017 6:06 pm

Walter & Lucy got married 12 August 1866 at St George the Martyr, Southwark. Her name has been mistranscribed as Lucey Leymour, which when you look at the image, the person who wrote the entry, his S & L's look very similar
Jenaheldd
 
Posts: 115
Joined: Fri May 29, 2015 3:43 pm

Re: The Lucas family from Islington

Postby ianbee » Thu Aug 10, 2017 7:58 pm

What about the daughter, Mary Ann Lucy?
Baptized 13 February 1852, St Marylebone.
born 11 January 1852
parents Walter and Mary Ann Lucas
abode 89 Devonshire St
father a Coach Painter

Is she with William Smithers in Paddington in 1871? Age 19, born Marylebone. Did she marry that year?
I can't see a birth reg for Mary Ann Lucy.
Earlier, there is a Louisa Lucas, mother Allen, birth registered Marylebone, June 1844. Seems to have died the same year.
And in June qtr 1845, Paddington, a birth reg of a Lucy Lucas, mother also Allen. Did she die in Marylebone in Dec qtr 1847, age 2?
Ian

EDITED To remove Lucy in 1871, she died in 1866!
Last edited by ianbee on Thu Aug 10, 2017 8:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.
ianbee
 
Posts: 2289
Joined: Wed Jul 28, 2010 4:51 pm

Re: The Lucas family from Islington

Postby Jenaheldd » Thu Aug 10, 2017 8:17 pm

sdup26 wrote:There doesn't seem to be a marriage for Walter to Mary, nor one for Walter to Lucy. Maybe he's a serial offender, but before we misjudge him, is it possible Lucy was always with Thomas, despite the censuses saying she's the 'wife' of William, which just might be due to incorrect recording. The GRO birth index doesn't help, because all the children are shown with father surname Lucas and mother surname Seymour, but do you have birth certificates for the youngest - for example, William b1864, and/or Maria b1867? If so, do they give William as the father?


I dont have the birth certs for the youngest 2, but I do have Johns (my ggf) - their 3rd child, from 1868. His father is listed as Walter Lucas coach painter, mother Lucy Lucas formally Seymour. I might send off for Williams out of curiosity.

As an aside, records - or lack of them - lead me to believe John Lucas never actually married my gg mother!
Jenaheldd
 
Posts: 115
Joined: Fri May 29, 2015 3:43 pm

Re: The Lucas family from Islington

Postby ianbee » Thu Aug 10, 2017 8:19 pm

Maybe
Name: Joachim William Smithers
Spouse's Name: Lucy Lucas
Date: 16 October 1831
Place: Saint James, Paddington
England Marriages, 1538–1973

Baptism, St Nicholas Brighton, 5 October 1813
Lucy
D. of Thomas + Charity Lucas
abode North Street
father a Grocer
ianbee
 
Posts: 2289
Joined: Wed Jul 28, 2010 4:51 pm

Next

Return to General research queries


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 3 guests