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Lost Great Great Grandfather.

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Lost Great Great Grandfather.

Postby auds120 » Wed Jul 19, 2017 8:38 am

Hi there,

I'm trying to locate the birth of my great great grandfather Alexander Doherty. He was born about 1841 in Ireland.

I have his marriage from Nov 1869, however when I requested the marriage cert the details were incorrect therefore I can't find out his parents names. It had the wrong grooms name on it! and the date was incorrect. The brides name was Margaret Browne, they married in Wicklow. I have located all his children, marriage and death records but no luck with his birth.

The census records give his age differently however on his death record in 1924 his age was recorded as 83.

Thanks.
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Re: Lost Great Great Grandfather.

Postby auds120 » Wed Jul 19, 2017 1:04 pm

[quote="JMcKinnon"]You don't think that entry on Nov 7th 1869 is of Alexander and Margaret being witnesses for Patrick Byrne and Elizabeth Grogan? Rather than being married themselves?
http://registers.nli.ie//registers/vtls ... 5/mode/1up

I never actually looked at it from that point of view, I just thought it was their marriage record. Back to the drawing board I presume. Thanks for that viewpoint.
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Re: Lost Great Great Grandfather.

Postby 2012girl » Wed Jul 19, 2017 1:54 pm

I think JMcKinnon is right, checking the Irish GRO index, the marriage is for Patrick Byrne & Elizabeth Grogan.

When was Alexander's first child born? Was Margaret Brown definitely Alexander's wife? Have you got that info from one of the children's birth certificates?

The only Alexander Doherty in Co. Wicklow on the 1901/1911 census was married to Catherine, married for 23 years according to the 1911 census. Is that your ancestor or had they left Co. Wicklow by that point? The marriage record states that this Alexander was a widower when he married Catherine Cullen in 1884 and gives his name as 'Alexander Doherty alias Darragh' and his fathers name as Thomas Darragh, Farmer. No point digging any further though if this is the wrong chap.

If Alexander was born c. 1841 then you would be looking for a baptism record as birth registrations didn't began until much later, unfortunately they can be difficult to find in Ireland.

As you say I think you need to have another look at things. If you can confirm what you already know in more detail we may be able to help you further but we would need more info, when and where exactly he died, children's details, census info etc, to make sure we're on the right track,

Jill
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Re: Lost Great Great Grandfather.

Postby auds120 » Wed Jul 19, 2017 2:28 pm

Thank you all so much for the help, really appreciate it.

Their first child, William was born on the 4th November 1870, baptism took place in Dublin, parents listed as Alexander Doherty and Margaret Brown. They had 6 children in total, each baptism the parents are Margaret Brown (or Margarita/ Margt) and Alexander Doherty (or O'Doherty). The baptism of the other 5 children took place in Wicklow.

I have a marriage record for Margaret Brown & Alexander Darrah in Feb 1870. (Father listed as Thomas Darragh).

His first wife died in 1883, I have her death record.

He married Catherine Cullen in 18th Sept 1884 in Rathdrum, Co Wicklow. I have previously checked out the marriage record, it's recorded as Alexander Doherty alias Darragh father again listed as Thomas Darragh. (that threw me a bit).
His second wife died in 1920.

Alexander died in 1924 and is buried in a cemetary in Rathnew, Co Wicklow.

Census of 1901 show himself and his wife Catherine and his youngest son Thomas all living together. 1911 census has himself and Catherine residing together.

I have been told that Alexander came down from the north of Ireland, however on both census forms it states he was born in Wicklow. I wonder could it possibly have been his parents that came to Wicklow from the north?

I have found a death cert for a lady called Anne Doherty residing in Rathnew at the time of her death and Catherine Doherty daughter in law was present. I can't find any other link to an Anne Doherty in the family yet though.

Thanks again.
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Re: Lost Great Great Grandfather.

Postby 2012girl » Wed Jul 19, 2017 3:33 pm

Thanks for that info. Well it would seem, then, that Alexander was also known as Darragh. I think you may already have the record you are seeking as that Alexander Darrah/Margaret Brown marriage also took place in Rathdrum and you say the father's name is also Thomas Darrah, the same as on the marriage to Catherine. I can't see any trace of another Alexander or Margaret Darrah in that area, after that marriage in 1870, to eliminate them as different couple.

Perhaps Anne Doherty was Alexander's mother and Thomas Darragh his father but they were never married, hence the use of the two surnames? Our ancestor's could often contradict themselves when giving information, particularly if things were rather complicated.

I notice it says Anne Doherty was a labourer's widow on that death record in 1895, but that would be the info given by the informant, Catherine, and what she believed to be true. Anne may have been a spinster or maybe she was married to a Mr. Doherty at some stage? It could be a possible explanation. Again, I can't see any evidence of another Catherine Doherty in Rathnew, other than Alexander's wife.

Have you looked at the death record for a Thomas Darragh, Mar 1876, Rathdrum, V.2, Pg. 931 in case that links up somehow? His age is given as 49, so born c .1827, that would make him younger than that death record for Anne Doherty and too young to be Alexander's father if all ages are correct, though Alexander's age does vary. It could be a red herring but may be worth checking out? Unfortunately the image isn't available to view online so you would need the death certificate. I think it's too much of a coincidence all these other names cropping up in a village like Rathnew though?

Jill
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Re: Lost Great Great Grandfather.

Postby auds120 » Wed Jul 19, 2017 9:30 pm

Jill, thanks for all your help.

I just have a further question, any help is greatly appreciated.
If his parents were not married, would they baptise him as Darragh or Doherty and would it be usual to use either surname? As he appears to have gotten married the first time with the surname of Darragh, used the Doherty surname for registering his children and used both on his second marriage.

I am going to order a copy of the death cert for Thomas Darragh, to see if that will shed any light on the matter, although I don't think that person is the Thomas Darragh is the guy I'm looking for as on the marriage cert for Alexander, I had thought if his father was deceased it would state it under his fathers name?

Thanks again.
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Re: Lost Great Great Grandfather.

Postby 2012girl » Wed Jul 19, 2017 11:04 pm

It's only a suggestion on my part as to why the dual names, I'm not saying that was the case, it could be even more complicated than that! His mother may have been married more than once, and so on.

You say you have both marriages, did the same priest perform the ceremonies? Someone else may chime in about the protocol of naming a father who doesn't have the same surname as you back in those days. I know no proof was required but a father with a different surname suggests illegitimacy so usually a father would be invented (one with the same surname) or the space left blank if the child was born out of wedlock. Father's being recorded as deceased, or not, didn't always happen so you can't read too much into that. Things could get terribly muddled, in terms of what info was given, if things weren't necessarily above board though.

It maybe worth a trawl through the catholic registers for that parish (if they go back that far) to see if there is a burial for a Thomas Darragh. The death I mentioned took place in the district of Rathdrum but that doesn't necessarily mean it took place in the village of Rathnew though. I'm cautious about the ages too so it could be a red herring, I only mention it for elimination purposes if you wish to look into it.

Likewise, if the registers are available you could search for any other Doherty burials who may be a potential husband of Anne's. I know the Irish registers aren't always very detailed but it may give an abode which could help. Checking the indexes, if she really was a widow then there are a number of male Doherty deaths, of a similar age, in that district prior to Anne's. If the rest of the death records ever come online to view for free you could have a look at them to see if you can identify or eliminate anyone? But it does look like Anne Doherty may well be linked to Alexander, with Catherine possibly registering her death, so it may be an idea to look into that to see if you can establish where the Darragh/Doherty names come in.

With regards to baptisms, it really depends on the circumstances of the parents, and that's what we're wondering about, so it could be either, if indeed he was baptised at all. A lot of speculation, I'm afraid, but hopefully a few new avenues to explore.

Jill
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Re: Lost Great Great Grandfather.

Postby AdrianB38 » Wed Jul 19, 2017 11:44 pm

Just going back to the 1869 marriage, the 2nd pair of names seem to have WW in front, which I suspect means "Witnesses" - sure that I've seen it elsewhere recently.

Re baptisms of illegitimate children: practice in the Church of England seems to be that the child is regarded as having the mother's surname. I don't think that the parents get any choice in the matter at the baptism, or rather, in the recording of the baptism in the parish register.

Normal practice in England would then see the father's name left blank on the marriage of their illegitimate child, but I am not sure if this is legally required or simply custom.

If a groom marries and their father is recorded but has a different surname, then my first thought would be that the groom was legitimate, because the father's name is there, but the mother of the groom had remarried so the groom was now going under his step father's name. It wouldn't be the first time that I've seen a deceased father recorded without the word "deceased" on the marriage record.

However, none of this is certain, this is just the avenue that I'd explore first. Remember, the parish clerk relies on people telling him the truth - and sometimes they don't!

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Re: Lost Great Great Grandfather.

Postby Sylcec » Thu Jul 20, 2017 12:00 am

Not sure if this will be of any help or just confuse the issue. I went into the site for digitised Irish Catholic parish registers http://registers.nli.ie/. A search for Rathnew gave a nil result; though there is an excellent run of church registers available for Rathdrum, starting in the late 1700s.
I looked for the 1870 marriage, but didn't find it in the register for Feb 1870.
Noting that you refer to Rathnew as a village, I wonder therefore in which Parish it was located? (Not having any particular knowledge of Irish parishes etc, someone else may be able to answer this.)
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Re: Lost Great Great Grandfather.

Postby 2012girl » Thu Jul 20, 2017 12:33 am

In reply to Sylvia. The 1884 marriage took place at the Catholic church in Wicklow. I'm not sure about the 1870 marriage as that's not viewable online, but the original poster may be able to tell us if that took place there too. Rathdrum was the name of the registration district for that area, as well as the name of a village in its own right. The family appear to have lived in Rathnew, which looks much closer to Wicklow than Rathdrum village, so maybe Wicklow was the nearest church?
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