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Clare/Hibbert/Hawthornthwaite: Manchester, Salford

A problem shared is a problem halved. Post your brick walls here and see whether you can offer advice to others

Re: Clare/Hibbert/Hawthornthwaite: Manchester, Salford

Postby DianaCanada » Sat Jul 15, 2017 1:20 pm

JMcK wrote:Did you notice that the marriage of George Thorp and Elizabeth Watson says she is a spinster but her father is Thomas Hamer, and then it looks as though wrt the children in the 1871 census - Henry is registered with mother's maiden name Watson, Caroline reg with mother's maiden name Hamer, and then Frederick mothers maiden name Watson again. (All Chorlton).

I realise this is a complete off shoot of your research, but interesting, and begs the question of what their real relationship to Richard Hawthornthwaite was.


Thank you JMcK, I hadn't seen this, very confusing! I will have to check the census again, perhaps Richard was George's stepfather rather than his father-in-law as we would use the term. But that goes against what "my" Richard stated as his marital status (bachelor) when he married Ellen Clare Hibbert.
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Re: Clare/Hibbert/Hawthornthwaite: Manchester, Salford

Postby Hagershorn » Mon Jul 17, 2017 9:58 pm

Hi,
My Cheshire colleague's list of the Haythornthwaites and Hawthornthwaites is some 300 pages long and contains no fewer than 118 Richard Haws, Hays , Hats etc. I have scanned them all in the age range you gave and not one fits. I'm sorry, but I haven't helped knock down yr brick wall.

Good luck and I'll keep looking as well. Don't forget, the names Hawthornthwaite, Haythornthwaite, Hathornthwaite are all interchangeable and are exactly the same name. I have even had this one on an envelope. Hartwornthwait!!!

As an aside, a Vincent Haythornthwaite had a daughter called Ellina Clare Haythornthwaite but she was born in 1964 in Perth Oz. I just wondered where the names Ellina and Clare came from. Grandparents? Coincidence?

J
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Re: Clare/Hibbert/Hawthornthwaite: Manchester, Salford

Postby Hagershorn » Tue Jul 18, 2017 10:18 am

The only Hawthornthwaite I can find who was born in Salford in 1807 was Edward my great Grandfather. However in the 1851 census he did give his name as Richard. It was definitely Edward as all the other members of the family were correct and his occupation was correct.
I wonder if Edward was a bigamist and gave the wrong name to the enumerator by accident?

He would not show up in any other census as Richard as he couldn't be in two places at the same time. Edward's father was John. His wife Mary Kenyon died in 1864, and Edward died in 1878 in Crumpsall.

Was he put there by Ellen?
However as Edward he wasn't a bricky, but a hatter. Perhaps as Richard he was a bricky.

Just a thought.

J
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Re: Clare/Hibbert/Hawthornthwaite: Manchester, Salford

Postby DianaCanada » Tue Jul 18, 2017 12:44 pm

Hagershorn wrote:Hi,
My Cheshire colleague's list of the Haythornthwaites and Hawthornthwaites is some 300 pages long and contains no fewer than 118 Richard Haws, Hays , Hats etc. I have scanned them all in the age range you gave and not one fits. I'm sorry, but I haven't helped knock down yr brick wall.

Good luck and I'll keep looking as well. Don't forget, the names Hawthornthwaite, Haythornthwaite, Hathornthwaite are all interchangeable and are exactly the same name. I have even had this one on an envelope. Hartwornthwait!!!

As an aside, a Vincent Haythornthwaite had a daughter called Ellina Clare Haythornthwaite but she was born in 1964 in Perth Oz. I just wondered where the names Ellina and Clare came from. Grandparents? Coincidence?

J


Thanks so much, John, for doing this for me! Also thank you for the most recent post. Richard does seem to be turning into a real mystery-man, especially as the Hawthornthwaites have been well researched. Odd that he went from a hatter to a brickmaker if Edward/Richard are the same man. I may never figure out who he was. Still would like to find Ellen's youngest children, George b. ca 1841 and Mary Jane b. ca 1843 (Hibbert). They are my great-great-grandfather's half siblings. William had several members of his half-sibling lot and one of his children with him in later years. He must have spent a number of years living with Ellen as his stepmother too.
Don't believe "Richard" and Ellen would have had any descendants as Ellen was past childbearing age when they married. I will double check the uk gov certificate site just in case, now that it shows maiden names for earlier births.
I thought Ellen might have been born in Warrington, Lancs., for reasons now I can't remember! but I never found an Ellen born there that "fit" on the 1861/71 censuses. I can understand missing someone on one census, but two in a row seems to be a bit unlikely, so am still optimistic I can find her on one of them.
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Re: Clare/Hibbert/Hawthornthwaite: Manchester, Salford

Postby DianaCanada » Tue Jul 18, 2017 12:51 pm

I mentioned in my first post that James Kilgour witnessed the marriage of Ellen and Richard. The name Kilgour has turned up in this Hibbert branch of my family a few times, as witnesses and one marriage to a "possible" relative. If anyone knows anything about Kilgours in Manchester, particularly Salford or Hulme, woudl love to share information!
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Re: Clare/Hibbert/Hawthornthwaite: Manchester, Salford

Postby Hagershorn » Tue Jul 18, 2017 5:29 pm

Re your last but one, you're welcome. My Cheshire guy is on holiday, but has agreed to discuss it all with me when he gets back. I shall put the bigamy idea to him and see what he thinks.

J
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Re: Clare/Hibbert/Hawthornthwaite: Manchester, Salford

Postby Hagershorn » Fri Jul 21, 2017 8:15 pm

Try a search on this girl. Betsy Swindlehurst Haythornthwaite
in the Lancashire, England, Church of England Births and Baptisms, 1813-1911. Her father is Richard and her mother is Ellen.

J
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Re: Clare/Hibbert/Hawthornthwaite: Manchester, Salford

Postby DianaCanada » Fri Jul 21, 2017 9:26 pm

Hagershorn wrote:Try a search on this girl. Betsy Swindlehurst Haythornthwaite
in the Lancashire, England, Church of England Births and Baptisms, 1813-1911. Her father is Richard and her mother is Ellen.

J


Would this be found on Ancestry?
(A weird coincidence - my husband was born a Swindlehurst but legally changed his name as "swindle" did not work well in his chosen profession!)
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Re: Clare/Hibbert/Hawthornthwaite: Manchester, Salford

Postby DianaCanada » Sat Jul 22, 2017 11:53 am

JMcKinnon wrote:It is on Ancestry, but it's an 1876 birth ( and death).
In the GRO indexes mother's maiden name is Swindlehurst.


Thank you for this, but this would not be my Ellen who had died before the birth, although the father might be her widower Richard, if quite elderly.

Sent from my iPad using WDYTYA Forum
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Re: Clare/Hibbert/Hawthornthwaite: Manchester, Salford

Postby Hagershorn » Sat Jul 22, 2017 9:12 pm

This is a record from the Crumpsal Workhouse. Might be yr Richard. To shorten the name to Hawthorn was very common.

First name(s) Richard
Last name Hawthorn
Birth year -
Admission/Discharge year 1877
Admission year 1877
Admission day 31
Admission month May
Previous residence Chorlton On Medlock
Place Manchester
Register book year 1872
Locality of record Manchester Withington Workhouse
Records title Creed Register
Date range 1872 - 1877
Film M 327 / 2 / 2 / 2
Record set Manchester Workhouse Registers 1800-1911
Category Institutions & organisations
Subcategory Workhouses and poor law
Collections from England, Great Britain

J
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