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Help with finding what happened to James Sale.

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Help with finding what happened to James Sale.

Postby pforkes » Sun Jul 09, 2017 6:25 pm

James Sale is my great, great grand uncle, and I would appreciate another set of eyes to look for him.

He was born on 15th August, 1841, in Horningsheath, Suffolk. On 19th September,1841, he was baptised (also in Horningsheath).

His father was William Sale and his mother Ann Arbourn.

The 1851 census him living with his parents (and siblings) still in Horningsheath where he is a scholar.

Those are the facts in which I have a very high degree of certainty.


The 1861 census shows that he could be a soldier in Woolwich.

After this I have not been able to find anything.
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Re: Help with finding what happened to James Sale.

Postby brunes08 » Sun Jul 09, 2017 8:19 pm

I found the following on Ancestry which maybe your James.

The 1861 census gives his occupation as Driver Royal Artillery age 20 bn Bury St Edmunds, Suffolk.

There is an entry for the Royal Hospital Chelsea Pensioner Admissions and Discharges 1715-1925. This entry gives his age as 22 which fits with his birth 1841 - examination 25th August -1863. It adds Regt as Royal Artillery 4th Brigade Rank D. Regiment number 1576 - Service End.

If this is your James, then there may have been a good reason for his discharge. Perhaps he was ill and died. Or perhaps he emigrated. More puzzles for you. As a note, this does not mean he was necessarily in the Hospital. All administration was carried out there and any pensioners were known as Chelsea Pensioners wherever they were.
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Re: Help with finding what happened to James Sale.

Postby MayHam » Sun Jul 09, 2017 11:15 pm

The original documents can be found on FindMyPast which includes the following information.
Military Discharge: 25 Aug 1863
Age: 22-9/12
Birth parish: Horringer nr Bury St. Edmunds
Disease of the heart prevents him from earning a living.
http://search.findmypast.com/record?id= ... 8%2f730028

There is also a document about him, dated 1861, at https://www.forces-war-records.co.uk/re ... igade-r-a/
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Re: Help with finding what happened to James Sale.

Postby ianbee » Mon Jul 10, 2017 5:14 pm

The army record says his intended place of residence was Bury St Edmunds.
But could James have died young a few years later in Kent? We know he had heart disease.
Dec 1867 Gravesend 2a 195
Sale, James
age 26

From FamilySearch
Name: James Sale
Event Type: Burial
Event Date: 3 Oct 1867
Event Place: Gravesend, Kent
Age: 26
Birth Year (Estimated): 1841
England, Kent, Parish Registers, 1538-1911

brunes08 wrote:There is an entry for the Royal Hospital Chelsea Pensioner Admissions and Discharges 1715-1925. This entry gives his age as 22 which fits with his birth 1841 - examination 25th August -1863. It adds Regt as Royal Artillery 4th Brigade Rank D. Regiment number 1576 - Service End.

You can see the entry for free on TNA website (the ancestry record links to Fold3)
http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.u ... /r/C613610

Images 162 and 163 using their Image Viewer
Or you can download the whole document. Thanks again to Adrian (AdrianB38) for the info on accessing those records.
Ian
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Help with finding what happened to James Sale.

Postby brunes08 » Mon Jul 10, 2017 5:33 pm

Re your post Ian, would you be so kind as to explain what Fold3 is. I saw its logo on Ancestry when I found the record above but haven't come across it before. It would be useful to know if I find it again. Thanks.
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Re: Help with finding what happened to James Sale.

Postby ianbee » Mon Jul 10, 2017 7:11 pm

Hi
It's a military records website which I believe is owned by ancestry. Or whoever owns ancestry!
They have recently put several databases of British Army records on there with an index to them on the ancestry website (such as you found), but to see the images you have to be a subscriber to Fold3.
As you can imagine, this has annoyed some ancestry subscribers!
I think most of the records on Fold3 are American, but they may also have the WO 97 pension records that are on findmypast? I stand to be corrected!
Ian
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Re: Help with finding what happened to James Sale.

Postby brunes08 » Mon Jul 10, 2017 9:25 pm

Thank you Ian. That is useful to know to pass on to friends in our local family history group. I may not need to use that site as I have been able to obtain all the copies of ancestors' service records that I need in all three services. Reading of other people's difficulties in tracking down records, I consider I have been exceedingly fortunate. Only one - my grandfather's brother - had a little charring and water damage but all of the important information was saved.
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Re: Help with finding what happened to James Sale.

Postby ianbee » Fri Jul 21, 2017 9:38 pm

Brunes -
Ancestry's UK military records are free this weekend (caveat, I'll say most of them)
The indexes they have that link to images on Fold3 - some of those images can be viewed on that other website for free too, via the link ancestry give, if you register with fold3. It only requires an e-mail address and a password to do that.
And yes, they include WO 97 pension records that we would usually view on findmypast.

The free records on fold3 are
British Army Lists
UK Military Deserters
UK, Royal Hospital Chelsea Pensioner Admissions and Discharges, 1715-1925
UK, Royal Hospital Chelsea Pensioner Soldier Service Records, 1760-1920 (WO 97)

James Sale's WO 116 record can thus be viewed for free on fold3 for a few days! Of course, we can still see it on TNA website.
Ian
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Re: Help with finding what happened to James Sale.

Postby brunes08 » Fri Jul 21, 2017 10:45 pm

Thanks Ian. Much appreciated. Always useful to have such information to hand if needed. Into my trusty notebook it goes!
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