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Frederick William Wilkins + wife

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Re: Frederick William Wilkins + wife

Postby AdrianB38 » Fri Jun 09, 2017 11:02 am

I've not been following this thread closely but I am puzzled. How did the GRO find it in 1968 - and why, come to that? It seems to imply that the change took place then... Which is why I wonder, Why?

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Re: Frederick William Wilkins + wife

Postby AntonyM » Fri Jun 09, 2017 12:14 pm

That short certificate is not from an adoption.

If you look at the reference number at the bottom it says 3a/158 - which is the volume and page number from the John F PIERCY entry previously identified.

I would get a full certificate from that entry - and from the local registration office if possible.

A short certificate can't be issued with the surname WILKINS on it unless that name appears on the registration so either the original entry is wrongly indexed, some sort of correction was made or more likely there was a later re-registration to add the father's name which hasn't been reflected in the available indexes (the extra ref 445 may be something to do with that).

I can't see a Wilkins/Piercy marriage at all so it may be a couple who never did tie the not but used both names. Interestingly there is a birth of a Daisy Wilkins (mmn Wilkins) in 1916 in Kingston District , which covers the Teddington area which was also mentioned
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Re: Frederick William Wilkins + wife

Postby AdrianB38 » Fri Jun 09, 2017 12:51 pm

AntonyM wrote:... A short certificate can't be issued with the surname WILKINS on it unless that name appears on the registration so either the original entry is wrongly indexed, some sort of correction was made or more likely there was a later re-registration to add the father's name which hasn't been reflected in the available indexes (the extra ref 445 may be something to do with that).
...

Confused I am. In the case of a correction or re-registration shouldn't that mean that the GRO should be able to find it under Wilkins? And if an incorrect index was compiled, how did the GRO find the thing to issue that 1968 certificate? Or is it pointless to ask about failure modes until we see that original Piercy certificate?
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Re: Frederick William Wilkins + wife

Postby AntonyM » Fri Jun 09, 2017 12:57 pm

AdrianB38 wrote:Confused I am. In the case of a correction or re-registration shouldn't that mean that the GRO should be able to find it under Wilkins? And if an incorrect index was compiled, how did the GRO find the thing to issue that 1968 certificate? Or is it pointless to ask about failure modes until we see that original Piercy certificate?


Something happened which meant that they were able to issue that certificate in the name Wilkins in 1968 - and it is clear that it refers back to the Piercy birth. There should be a re-registration or correction reflected in the indexes, but I can't see one. But no index is error free so something may have gone wrong somewhere in the process. What is on that 1919 birth entry should provide the explanation.
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Re: Frederick William Wilkins + wife

Postby Cmcquade » Fri Jun 09, 2017 1:00 pm

Wow. This has really opened my eyes. Now I have more questions then answers. I do have Daisy's birth certificate .it says mother was Annie Wilkins,but on johns army records it says Nellie Wilkins so I dismissed it as someone else.Confusing. How would I go about contacting the local office about John? I've no idea where to start with this. Also I think my nan got hold of this copy because his first wife had the original and may have needed it for his death. So orderd it in the 60s? No idea.
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Re: Frederick William Wilkins + wife

Postby ianbee » Fri Jun 09, 2017 1:34 pm

AntonyM wrote:Interestingly there is a birth of a Daisy Wilkins (mmn Wilkins) in 1916 in Kingston District , which covers the Teddington area which was also mentioned

Not sure that this birth has anything to do with it, why did you buy the certificate?

The births of the girls, mentioned by Caroline, were in Marylebone. But no marriage found.
I think the 1926 electoral register may have the answer.
Included at 36 Blandford Square, Marylebone -
Piercy, Ellen Esther (Mrs.)
Wilkins, Frederick William

Frederick was listed at that address for a few years previously. Probably Ellen had hit the age of 30 around 1926.
1939 Register -
26 Upper Tedd Road, Twickenham M.B., Middlesex
Ellen E Wilkins, born 7 Mar 1897, Widowed, Working Caretaker
Gertrude D Wilkins (later Collins, later Pettit), 28 Jan 1917, Single, Dress Maker
2 x closed records

Birth
March 1917 St. Geo. H. Sq. 1a 657
Piercy, Gertrude D. M.
mother Piercy
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Re: Frederick William Wilkins + wife

Postby ianbee » Fri Jun 09, 2017 1:37 pm

Ah, Gertrude could be Daisy
Death
September 1995, Kingston upon Thames
Gertrude Daisy Collins
d-o-b 28 Jan 1917

Well, Gertrude D Wilkins married Edward Collins, March 1940, Surrey N.E.
Then in Dec 1948, Middlesex S., Gertrude D Collins/Gertrude D Wilkins married John A Pettit.
And seems to have eventually ended up with her death registered as Collins?
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Re: Frederick William Wilkins + wife

Postby ianbee » Fri Jun 09, 2017 2:07 pm

Was that month of birth wrong in 1939?
Death
May 1984 Kingston upon Thames 13 1998
Ellen Esther Wilkins
d-o-b 7 July 1897

Matches
Birth
Sep 1897 Fulham 1a 235
Piercy, Ellen Esther
mother Watson

Probate for Ellen Esther Wilkins. Died 12 May 1984
of 4 Norbiton Av Kingston upon Thames
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Re: Frederick William Wilkins + wife

Postby Cmcquade » Fri Jun 09, 2017 2:20 pm

ianbee wrote:
AntonyM wrote:Interestingly there is a birth of a Daisy Wilkins (mmn Wilkins) in 1916 in Kingston District , which covers the Teddington area which was also mentioned

Not sure that this birth has anything to do with it, why did you buy the certificate?

The births of the girls, mentioned by Caroline, were in Marylebone. But no marriage found.
I think the 1926 electoral register may have the answer.
Included at 36 Blandford Square, Marylebone -
Piercy, Ellen Esther (Mrs.)
Wilkins, Frederick William

Frederick was listed at that address for a few years previously. Probably Ellen had hit the age of 30 around 1926.
1939 Register -
26 Upper Tedd Road, Twickenham M.B., Middlesex
Ellen E Wilkins, born 7 Mar 1897, Widowed, Working Caretaker
Gertrude D Wilkins (later Collins, later Pettit), 28 Jan 1917, Single, Dress Maker
2 x closed records

Birth
March 1917 St. Geo. H. Sq. 1a 657
Piercy, Gertrude D. M.
mother Piercy


You've definatley got the Gertrude daisy Wilkins right. She did marry a Collins and petit (she was only known as daisy) And occupation seems right with what little information my uncle had. So let me get this right. Ellen e piercy did eventually marry Frederick? but no marriage record can be found?
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Re: Frederick William Wilkins + wife

Postby AntonyM » Fri Jun 09, 2017 2:56 pm

Cmcquade wrote: So let me get this right. Ellen e piercy did eventually marry Frederick? but no marriage record can be found?


The birth registrations of Ivy and Violet in 1921 and 1922 (mentioned previously) are indexed under both surnames which means that mother and father are named on the birth registrations as joint informants, and therefore not married (or claiming to be). That would seem to be supported by the electoral register entry also mentioned in 1926 where they clearly are not married.

You might consider why they didn't marry - was one of them already married to someone else ?
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