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1911 Cenus - multiple families in same house

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1911 Cenus - multiple families in same house

Postby JamesLeeKennett » Mon Jun 05, 2017 10:35 am

I was wondering if anyone could help me. A friend has moved into a house which has always been divided up into 4 flats. As a moving in present I am trying to identify and frame the page of the 1911 Cenus which lists the family who lived in his specific flat. Did the enumerators file their records working from the top floor down, or the bottom floor up? Or is there some other record I can find this information out from? I have found a famous suffragette (Edith Margaret Garrud) lived in the house, and I'm hoping it was in his flat! Any help is very appreciated. Thanks, James
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Re: 1911 Cenus - multiple families in same house

Postby AdrianB38 » Mon Jun 05, 2017 12:44 pm

My immediate gut reaction is that, given that we see so many arrangements of the houses in a street (some are all odds followed by all evens, some are all in numerical order, etc) that I doubt that there were any instructions about which way to work. And no guarantee that they were followed if they existed!

Happy to be proved wrong...

NB given that the image in question doesn't appear to record a flat number or equivalent, I would question if there is any guarantee that *any* order was preserved after the schedules were dumped in the enumerator's bag.

I suspect that "She lived in your house, went out through the same door, might even have been in your flat" is the best that you can do.

It would be worth checking electoral registers to see when her husband had the vote and if there are flat numbers there. (Husband was a ju jitsu teacher - didn't expect that!)

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Re: 1911 Cenus - multiple families in same house

Postby JamesLeeKennett » Mon Jun 05, 2017 1:17 pm

Hi Adrian,

Thank you very much for replying. Its always great to get an expert set of eyes on a question, and thank you for looking at the census. The 'ju jitsu teacher' aspect really caught my eye too, and initially I started to research the husband in the chance that I could find out more (perhaps an old newspaper advert). However, it soon become clear that the wife was the person to look at! She was known as 'The Ju Jitsu Suffragette', taught the women how to defend themselves against capture by the police during the 'Cat and Mouse Act', and there are some wonderful photographs from newspapers, and even videos on youtube of her demonstrating throwing a policeman (actor stand-in) over her shoulder! I'll continue to research, and hopefully find the answer I'm looking for. Thank you for your help. James
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Re: 1911 Cenus - multiple families in same house

Postby ianbee » Mon Jun 05, 2017 5:34 pm

The enumerator's summary book says that Mr Garrud was a lodger at 61 Hartham Road. And I can't see any number in that part of Hartham Road (en dist 4, Lower Holloway) with more than three schedules (i.e. no sign of four flats from that)

1911 electoral register, Ward 1, Lower Holloway, West Division of Islington, has -
Division 1 voters
George Quested, 61 Hartham road (second floor)

Division 3 voters
Frederick John Thomas Jordan, 61 Hartham road (basement)

No one in Division 2
Unfortunately no one listed in the lodger voters that year either (nor 1912).

In 1913 Quested is in the lodger voters, three rooms, second floor unfurnished, landlord G T Dickinson, same address.

In the 1911 census, for what it's worth, Jordan was schedule 60, Garrud (lodger), schedule 61, Quested schedule 62.
It seems that if your friend is in the basement or second floor, then it may be the wrong flat!
Was Edith a suffragette in 1911?
Last edited by ianbee on Tue Jun 06, 2017 9:46 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: 1911 Cenus - multiple families in same house

Postby ianbee » Mon Jun 05, 2017 7:00 pm

Just to complicate matters
1909 George Quested listed on the third floor
1911 Quested on the second floor, Sidney John Clarke on the ground floor
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Re: 1911 Cenus - multiple families in same house

Postby ianbee » Mon Jun 05, 2017 8:18 pm

AdrianB38 wrote: I would question if there is any guarantee that *any* order was preserved after the schedules were dumped in the enumerator's bag.

They had a Memorandum Book, which I believe they used when delivering the schedules
The enumerators summary book says -
3. Summarising the Dwellings and Population in the Enumeration District.
If your schedules are arranged in the same order as in the Memorandum Book, copy into columns 2-8 of this Summary Book all the entries made in columns 1-7 of the Memorandum Book. Then take the Schedules one by one and enter in column 1 of this Book the number of the Schedule, and in columns 9-11 the numbers of males, females, and of persons, taking care that the name of the occupier entered in column 1 of the Schedule and the address as given at the foot, agree with the name and address as copied from the Memorandum Book.

So, does that mean the enumerator already knew the number of each schedule before he entered it on its completion and return? Presume then that he wouldn't have gone to flats and delivered them in any random order?
Ian
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Re: 1911 Cenus - multiple families in same house

Postby AdrianB38 » Mon Jun 05, 2017 9:21 pm

ianbee wrote:... So, does that mean the enumerator already knew the number of each schedule before he entered it on its completion and return? Presume then that he wouldn't have gone to flats and delivered them in any random order?
Ian

Phew.... Err...

Well certainly that means that the schedules wouldn't end up in the sort of jumble that I feared as they got chucked into his bag. In fact, if I think about it, the schedules must surely have been already physically marked up with some sort of identity as they were delivered to the householder - otherwise, how would the enumerator know if he was missing one, other than by comparing the returns to either a list or a numeric sequence?

If the name of the householder is in the Memorandum Book, then surely the name (at least) could only be entered into the Memorandum Book as the blank schedules were given out, and not before. So it sounds to me like the Memorandum Book had to be filled in as the blank schedules were given out - surely there's no way that he would know how many flats, e.g., in the house in question, before going out there. Hmm - rather a lot of "surely" in that lot, as in "Surely this must be true?" (There must be a quote from Airplane here!)

But if the Memorandum Book were indeed filled in as he was out on his rounds, then the order was probably, as it always seems to be, whatever order the enumerator found convenient. And you'd guess that the flats would be in some order - but your guess is as good as mine whether he'd do the basement first or last in the absence of any instructions (which a quick Google and a longer look on the Histpop site didn't reveal).

It's all very interesting.... (It does look like the Electoral Registers are more useful though).
Adrian
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Re: 1911 Cenus - multiple families in same house

Postby ianbee » Mon Jun 05, 2017 10:00 pm

Hi
Thanks Adrian.
I've been unable to find an example of a Memorandum Book, I guess they would all have been destroyed, but I hoped there might be a spare unused one knocking about! Or at least a copy of the instructions they contained.
But I agree, the enumerators are unlikely to have been told whether to start from the bottom or from the top in a block of flats!
At the moment it seems that we can only eliminate those two particular flats at number 61 in 1911.
Ian
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Re: 1911 Cenus - multiple families in same house

Postby Guy » Tue Jun 06, 2017 7:48 am

If you look on the Histpop website you will find plenty of information about the various census
For example https://tinyurl.com/y9w7tl6n gives an overview of families in tenements.

Instructions to the Enumerator for the 1901 census are on https://tinyurl.com/yd8lhr72

The following page shows the occupants of one address (one house number 2 Pearl St) this is carried over to the next page.
https://tinyurl.com/y8hk4q5f

I would assume the enumerator would enter the building and post schedule 1 in the first door he/she came across, then walk to the next door and post schedule 2 and so on until all the schedules for that floor were posted through the relevant doors. Then he/she would climb the stairs to the next floor, etc.
This of course is assuming there was not a mailbox for each dwelling in the hallway of the property.

The 1911 census is arranged slightly differently as the images we see are the actual schedules posted through the doors.
61 Harman Rd. starts with Frederick Jordan & his wife and his mother-in-law, followed by William Herbert Garrud, his wife and daughter on the next image, George Quested and his wife on the next, the following image has the address is torn off therefore one does not know if it refers to 61 Harman Rd. or 59 Harman Rd. (the transcripts have her at 59 Harman Rd.)
Looking at other images of houses on Harman Rd. they seem to contain 3 separate flats each.

I would therefore suggest Edith Margaret Garrud and family lived on the second floor of the property.

I would recommend the Histpop website to all family historians as it contains information about many records (not just census) useful to family history
Cheers
Guy

P.S. I have just looked at the address on Google Maps and the building seems to be a basement with separate entrance and three above ground floors.
William Herbert Garrud, his wife Edith Margaret Garrud and daughter are working as Judo instructors on the 1911 census, could they have the basement as their gym or dojo (training rooms)
As we have gained from the past, we owe the future a debt, which we pay by sharing today.
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Re: 1911 Cenus - multiple families in same house

Postby ianbee » Tue Jun 06, 2017 9:22 am

William Garrud does not say that he was working at home though.
Quested was on the second floor, and Jordan was in the basement flat, according to the electoral register.
Is there a 1911 PO London Directory online?
1914 Trades Directory has
Teachers of Gymnastics
Garrud William Herbert (ju-jutsu), 8 & 9 Sherwood street W
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