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Great Grandad - Royal engineers enquiry

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Great Grandad - Royal engineers enquiry

Postby Claire Price » Sun May 21, 2017 6:32 pm

Hello,
My Great Grandfather Reg 3716 David Lloyd alias David Jones enlisted for the Royal Engineers militia and the record that I have found is very confusing. Although, I have never heard of him before finding this record, the details enclosed have failed to provide me with any pre-knowledge of his life, birth, family etc and only provide more questions than answers.
Would the records advised to be held at Kew hold any details additional that on ancestry to help me investigate and seek further details of my family before this enlistment? I eagerly await you response Claire


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Re: Great Grandad - Royal engineers enquiry

Postby AdrianB38 » Sun May 21, 2017 10:29 pm

Claire - you have the lot there - always assuming that you've managed to find your way round Ancestry, which fools many people to start with.

You've got David Lloyd in the British Army WWI Pension Records 1914-1920 document dated 1903 - the best thing to do is click the link labelled "View Packet Cover", as otherwise you may end up part way through his papers. This is his 1903 Attestation (i.e. joining up) to the Militia (image 1326 on). It tells you how old he claims to be and that he is a collier.

Image 1329 is important - it gives his next of kin as his aunt, Elizabeth Morgan of Mile End, London. So my heart sinks - London is, as we know, a big place, and someone has moved - is it London to S Wales or S Wales to London? If it were his father noted as next of kin, it would have been easier as you could look in the census for the two of them, but his aunt is going to be trickier.

Image 1329 is the last for DL.

You also have David Lloyd in the British Army WWI Pension Records 1914-1920 document dated 1908. Same trick - click the packet cover to start at image 1319 (yes, the two sets of documents are filed in reverse order). What's happening here in 1908 is that he's joining a different part of the Army - originally he was in the Militia, and now he's joining the Special Reserve. I'd be fairly certain that this is nothing to do with anything that he wanted to do, because in 1908 the part time force of the Army were reorganised from the Militia and Volunteers to the Special Reserve and Territorial Force. As part of this reorganisation , he's ended up signing another Attestation (i.e. joining up) document. Note that he's now claiming to be a seaman - my guess is that he's just working in coastal shipping because he'd never be able to get to the annual training camps if he were a deep-sea sailor. On image 1322 you can see the training camps he's been on.

On image 1323, his next of kin is his Aunt, Elizabeth Phillips of Swansea - so she's presumably married and moved. Image 1323 also gives the details of his marriage to Elizabeth ??Fewings?? at Swansea Register Office - you need to get that marriage certificate to find his father's name - unless he's illegitimate, when it doesn't record a father's name.

Image 1324 is his Conduct Sheet from 1908 on - all looks pretty innocuous - "creating a disturbance in his tent" - hmm - alcohol related, one wonders?

And then we're on to the image 1326 of his 1903 Attestation that I've mentioned previously.

I've just skimmed this but the marriage certificate is probably the most important thing next.

There's no reason for the Army to document his parents other than as his next of kin, and, as we see here they're not even that. His aunt's marriage (assuming these details are correct) may help - you need to find a marriage of an Elizabeth Morgan to a Mr Phillips, somewhere, between 1903 and 1908. FreeBMD has 4 possibilities for that - but how do you know which is the right one? Well, the only thing I can suggest is to check those possibilities against the 1911 census and see whether any are in Swansea.

Good luck - this is liable to be messy....
Adrian
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Re: Great Grandad - Royal engineers enquiry

Postby ianbee » Mon May 22, 2017 9:43 am

Claire Price wrote:Including his marriage certificate which clearly details him and his father as Lloyd

Dec 1910 Swansea 11a 1864
Fewings, Elizabeth J
Lloyd, David

Seem to be living in Swansea in 1911 census. David Lloyd, 29, born Aberystwith, a Rigger.

1939 Register has a widowed Elizabeth J Lloyd (d-o-b one year out?) at 52 Dyfed Avenue, Swansea, with what looks like two of her children with her, Doris M. (who had recently married Mr Hartley), and David C M who I think is actually Cyril D M (born 1925).

Death in Swansea, March qtr 1936
either David Lloyd, age 53, 11a 1116
or David Lloyd, age 53, 11a 1127

Probate calendar 1936
David Lloyd, of 52 Dyfed avenue Town Hill Swansea, died 18 January 1936.
Administration London 17 February to Elizabeth Jane Lloyd widow.
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Re: Great Grandad - Royal engineers enquiry

Postby ianbee » Mon May 22, 2017 3:00 pm

ianbee wrote:Seem to be living in Swansea in 1911 census. David Lloyd, 29, born Aberystwith, a Rigger.

That's not the same birthplace as on the army record, is it.

Aunt Elizabeth Phillips, 27 Park St, Swansea, as per army record next of kin
1911 census, at that address
Elizabeth Philips Head 47 Widow Dressmaker own account, born Swansea Glam
Margaret Philips Daughter 25 Single Domestic Swansea Glam
+ 2 boarders
Elizabeth has filled in the marriage/children details, 28 years + 1 child born/living
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Re: Great Grandad - Royal engineers enquiry

Postby AdrianB38 » Mon May 22, 2017 3:15 pm

Umm - seems unlikely that the aunt was a Morgan in 1903 then. Either it's a different aunt or there is some deliberate obfuscation going on...

(I tried looking for the aunt in Swansea in 1911 and failed - wonder if I used 1 L or 2? Shouldn't have been so precise.... )

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Re: Great Grandad - Royal engineers enquiry

Postby ianbee » Mon May 22, 2017 3:49 pm

Well, based on the details that she gave in 1911, I'm having difficulty with Elizabeth before 1911. Unless Margaret wasn't an only child as she said.

Electoral register for 1904, about the right time, has an Ellinor Morgan listed at 32 Howards Buildings (Albert Street), Mile End New Town Ward, Whitechapel Division of Tower Hamlets.

Is she the Ellinor Morgan who was listed at 46 Metropolitan Buildings, MENT, 1901-1903?
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Re: Great Grandad - Royal engineers enquiry

Postby ianbee » Mon May 22, 2017 4:06 pm

If she is, her place of birth is interesting
1901
piece 303 folio 85 page 20
Mile End New Town
46 Metropolitan Bds, Albert Street
Eleanor Morgan Head Wid 48 Aberystwyth Wales
David Morgan Son 26 Aberystwyth Wales
John Morgan Son 17
Eleanor Morgan Daur 15
Thomas Morgan Son 9
George Morgan Son 7
+ a Jones boarder
Other children were born East London area

It would be good to have whether that is the right David + Elizabeth in 1911 confirmed or otherwise. David was discharged from the army, 1.5.1915, I don't know if there is any connection with -
Royal Naval Reserve Ratings' Records of Service
Name Lloyd, David
Place of Birth: Aberystwyth, Cardiganshire
Number: ST 359
Date of Birth: 05 July 1882
Reference: BT 377/7/98488
Date: [1908-1955]
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Re: Great Grandad - Royal engineers enquiry

Postby ianbee » Mon May 22, 2017 8:12 pm

From what I can make out from a quick look at the "intentionally distorted" images on TNA website of that RNR record for David Lloyd -
Colour of eyes, Brown (whereas army record says Hazel)
Personal Marks, Fem.....left (army says Female tattoo, left arm)
Address, ...ll St, ...th Hil...., nsea
District .wanse...
Could that be Hill St, North Hill (Rd), Swansea?

In 1911 the possible David + Elizabeth Lloyd mentioned were living 20 Hill Street, Swansea in 2 rooms.
2 rooms were advertised for let at 20 Hill Street, North Hill Road, Swansea in June 1910 (South Wales Daily Post)

Baby show at Dyfatty!
Class 5 included Doris May Lloyd, 20 Hill-street
(Cambria Daily Leader, 5th July 1917)

Birth, March 1916 Swansea 11a 2104
Lloyd, Doris Mary
mother Fewings
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Re: Great Grandad - Royal engineers enquiry

Postby Claire Price » Wed May 24, 2017 7:29 pm

Hi you are all fantastic,
My Grandmother is Lilian Doreen Ashmore, being my fathers mother and one of Elizabeth J Lloyd nee Fewings Children. I have the marriage certificate of David and Elizabeth but this still doesn't provide a view of him or his family before the documents you have found.
I have also got the death certificate of David Lloyd which confirms address 52 Dyfed Avenue, Swansea.
Anything further would be great, thank you :D
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