Moderator Control Panel ]

Cause of death question

A problem shared is a problem halved. Post your brick walls here and see whether you can offer advice to others

Cause of death question

Postby Lauratunni » Fri May 19, 2017 3:41 pm

We learnt that my grandma had a child before she married, we ordered both the birth certificate and the death certificate and learnt the baby died after breathing for one minute.
It was a home birth in 1943, so a midwife wouldn't have been in intendence. The cause of death reads 'strangulation iquited of manslaughter'.
There's notes on the death certificate about an inquest with where the inquest took place and where.

My first question is, what could the cause of death actually be? We're guessing that maybe the cord was wrapped around the babies neck? Would there be any other possibilities?
Secondly, is there a way I can get hold of the inquest or anything else that might help me learn more?
And finally, would they have taken the baby away? Would they return it to be buried? We can't find any grave for the baby, but someone did tell us that there used to be a grave behind where the farm my grandma lived stood. Could they have buried the baby on private land?
Lauratunni
 
Posts: 7
Joined: Fri May 19, 2017 3:33 pm

Re: Cause of death question

Postby JaneyH » Fri May 19, 2017 4:05 pm

How clear is the handwriting or typing for the cause of death? I wonder if the phrase "strangulation acquitted of manslaughter" might make more sense.

This could - as you suggested - mean the cord was wrapped around the baby's neck. The "acquitted of manslaughter" part would presumably then mean that foul play had been investigated by the coroner and ruled out. I should add that this is just an interpretation based on the words, not from medical or legal knowledge.

In terms of coroner's records my understanding is that these are technically the personal property of each individual coroner and therefore rarely survive in any archives.


Sent from my iPhone using WDYTYA Forum
User avatar
JaneyH
 
Posts: 563
Joined: Mon Dec 02, 2013 5:35 pm

Re: Cause of death question

Postby AdrianB38 » Fri May 19, 2017 5:14 pm

Why wouldn't a midwife have been in attendance? Not a certainty of course, but surely a possibility.

I agree with Janey about the survival of coroner's reports. I think that I found that Lancashire Records Office have some so it's always worth checking the RO. Newspaper reports are usually the best that can be done - but at that time, of course, the war would be pushing everything else to one side in reports.

But I do wonder if it went further than the coroner? Use of the term "acquitted" suggests to me the possibility of a court case over negligence - but the time between the death and issuing the certificate may suggest otherwise.

I thought that burial on private land was a complete no-no in the UK in that era.

Sent from my MotoG3 using WDYTYA Forum mobile app
Adrian
AdrianB38
 
Posts: 2536
Joined: Tue Jul 27, 2010 4:07 pm

Re: Cause of death question

Postby Lauratunni » Fri May 19, 2017 8:23 pm

Hello! Thanks for the replies!
We're assuming there was no midwife present because of where they were in the middle of no where but also because my grandmother always told us that for her sisters children's births they never had a midwife and my grandmother didn't for the child she had after this one.
She also had a son before the baby that was illegitimate (as was this one, and they were Roman Catholic family) which was adopted by her parents and passed of as their own, and there was no midwife in attendance then either. I guess they didn't want people to know?

As for the the certificate, I think they must have meant acquitted? Which would make sense.
I'll try and take a photo and attach it for you to look at.
It has, I believe, the name of the court or investigators that were involved?
This all happened beside ashopton which they flooded so a lot of records were lost or destroyed which is a bit of a pain.
I did walk up earlier to where the farm stood and couldn't find any kind of stone marking for the grave like I was told. We did question whether it was possibly the grave of one of the horses since my grandparents were very fond of them?


Sent from my iPhone using WDYTYA Forum
Lauratunni
 
Posts: 7
Joined: Fri May 19, 2017 3:33 pm

Re: Cause of death question

Postby Lauratunni » Fri May 19, 2017 8:25 pm

It seems I made a mistake, it does say acquired. I read it quickly before going out to work.
ImageUploadedByWDYTYA Forum1495225452.614961.jpg
ImageUploadedByWDYTYA Forum1495225452.614961.jpg (72.52 KiB) Viewed 1859 times
ImageUploadedByWDYTYA Forum1495225470.962334.jpg
ImageUploadedByWDYTYA Forum1495225470.962334.jpg (74.01 KiB) Viewed 1859 times
ImageUploadedByWDYTYA Forum1495225491.368829.jpg
ImageUploadedByWDYTYA Forum1495225491.368829.jpg (64.93 KiB) Viewed 1859 times



Sent from my iPhone using WDYTYA Forum
Lauratunni
 
Posts: 7
Joined: Fri May 19, 2017 3:33 pm

Re: Cause of death question

Postby AdrianB38 » Fri May 19, 2017 9:06 pm

I'm struggling to read it, but it seems to say "Certificate of inquest adjourned and not resumed received from ...".

I have no idea (a) whether that's right or (b) quite what it means, but the certificate is issued 2 months after the birth / death, so time for things to happen in a legal sense?

We've mentioned before that with still births or death immediately after birth, parents were, in that era, encouraged to forget and move on. That was felt to be for the best, so the child's body would, it is said, often be buried with some other, totally unrelated burial conveniently taking place at the same time.
Adrian
AdrianB38
 
Posts: 2536
Joined: Tue Jul 27, 2010 4:07 pm

Cause of death question

Postby Lauratunni » Fri May 19, 2017 9:36 pm

We've been scratching our heads over this all day. Brooke-Taylor is still around today, it was the coroner and is currently a solicitors. Not sure if they can tell us anything.

The record office has some records from Brooke-Taylors but as far as I can tell it's only up until 1915.

She registered the birth the same day as the death certificate, as well. So she left it a few months?
We've checked the weather for those months looking to see if there was any bad snow or anything that would stop her from registering it, but there's not.
We're really drawing blanks on this.


Sent from my iPhone using WDYTYA Forum
Lauratunni
 
Posts: 7
Joined: Fri May 19, 2017 3:33 pm

Re: Cause of death question

Postby AdrianB38 » Fri May 19, 2017 10:06 pm

Lauratunni wrote:... She registered the birth the same day as the death certificate, as well. So she left it a few months? ...

No - she didn't register the death at all. Someone started the process, almost certainly immediately after the death. That had to go to the coroner, who seems to have taken nearly 2m to do his work - he could be waiting on the police. Then the Registrar took the information for the registration from the coroner. I think that once the coroner is involved, the registrar cannot do anything until he gets the data from the coroner - that's what the certificate referred to in the cause column is about, it's the coroner's stuff for the registrar.

I'd take a good guess that Brooke-Taylor will tell you nothing. Firstly, the firm of solicitors wasn't the coroner, (presumably) one of them was the coroner and there's no certainty that he would have filed his coroner's papers with the firm. Certainly today that would never be allowed, as they are 2 different organisations. Secondly, even if they had them, they'd almost certainly put a confidentiality block on releasing them.
Adrian
AdrianB38
 
Posts: 2536
Joined: Tue Jul 27, 2010 4:07 pm

Re: Cause of death question

Postby Lauratunni » Fri May 19, 2017 10:40 pm

Oh! Okay, that makes more sense! We were trying to work out how it all worked.
I assume she had to wait for all this to happen before she could register the birth, since that is also the fourteenth of July?
ImageUploadedByWDYTYA Forum1495233453.207825.jpg
ImageUploadedByWDYTYA Forum1495233453.207825.jpg (44.05 KiB) Viewed 1809 times

ImageUploadedByWDYTYA Forum1495233469.051455.jpg
ImageUploadedByWDYTYA Forum1495233469.051455.jpg (44.27 KiB) Viewed 1809 times


Do you have any knowledge into why this all would have happened? We've never come across this before when a baby has died. Would it be a case of someone reporting it or would this have just been protocol?

I've had a good look and it does seem the coroner gave some reports to the local record office, so hopefully we'll find something in there? But I'm not holding out hope. Worth a shot though.

I thought the chances of getting anything out of the solicitors if they did have any information would be slim.


Sent from my iPhone using WDYTYA Forum
Lauratunni
 
Posts: 7
Joined: Fri May 19, 2017 3:33 pm

Re: Cause of death question

Postby AdrianB38 » Fri May 19, 2017 11:12 pm

I'd guess that the birth registration was deliberately held back so that both were done as a pair, but I'm not sure whose decision that might be.

Someone official would need to be involved with the death and they would have made absolutely certain that all the requisite forms were filled in first - otherwise, they'd be in breach of the law. So your relatives would have been told what to do by the undertakers / doctor / whoever; those people would have their process defined by law; the undertaker would need the clearance from the registrar or coroner (not sure which) before the body went for burial, etc., etc.
Adrian
AdrianB38
 
Posts: 2536
Joined: Tue Jul 27, 2010 4:07 pm

Next

Return to General research queries


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 3 guests

cron