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William Henry GILBERT

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Re: William Henry GILBERT

Postby SDV » Wed May 31, 2017 4:35 pm

Mick - my mistake in the 1881, he was living with his widowed mother.

Sdup6 - Alice was certainly born in 1876 after James' death in 1873. So yes he clearly could not have been her father. The date of her birth comes from various censuses and the 1939 register. I have no reason not to believe the date she herself gave in the 1939 register of 10 Mar 1876. Whether she was the illegitimate daughter of Harriet with another man or Harriet's granddaughter is another matter. On her marriage certificate in 1898, she states for what it is worth that her father was James Gilbert. In the 1881 census, she is listed as Harriet's daughter. And in the 1891 census following Harriet's death, she is living with her married elder sister and is listed as her sister.

With regard to sending for her birth certificate, chance would be a fine thing, as she does not appear in any of the indexes, either as a Gilbert or a Mardell. I have contacted both the GRO and the local registry office and neither has any record. I have gone as far as checking all the Alices born in the Edmonton registration area around that time with no luck.

ksouthall - the problem regarding William's age is that he was born in 1869 and cannot be the William who died in WW1, as that William was 23 when he married in 1917 and 24 when he died in 1918, suggesting a birth date of 1894. The discrepancy of 25 years is simply too great.

For me the remaining questions with regard to William are:

(1) what happened to William after his discharge in 1902?
(2) why doesn't he appear in the 1911 census?
(3) did he marry?
(4) when and where did he die?

And with regard to Alice:

(1) who was her father?
(2) who was her mother?
(3) under what name was she registered?
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Re: William Henry GILBERT

Postby ianbee » Wed May 31, 2017 10:17 pm

There is this birth registration
June 1876 Edmonton 3a 228
Martin, Alice
mother's maiden surname Mardell

Seems to be a complete one off for Martin-Mardell (or even Mardle, etc). Yes, there was a Samuel Martin - Jane C Mardell marriage in Greenwich in 1873, but I think she was a widow in 1871, and they are living in Greenwich in 1881.
Ian
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Re: William Henry GILBERT

Postby SDV » Fri Jun 02, 2017 8:49 am

Interesting. The name MARTIN is linked to the Gilbert. In fact, Emma Frances MARTIN was the first wife of James Gilbert. Emma died very young in March 1861 of TB, aged only 20. Three years later, James married Harriet Mardell. Emma's mother Mary Ann DAY (formerly MARTIN, née WRIGHT) was a witness at James marriage to Harriet.

So there is definitely a family link. In fact, until I finally tracked down her birth certificate, I thought that James' eldest daughter, Emma, was the daughter of Emma Martin rather than Harriet Mardell. Emma was born Dec 1861. On her birth certificate she is named as Emma Eliza MARDELL, with no father being named, though presumably that was James Gilbert.
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Re: William Henry GILBERT

Postby SDV » Mon Jun 12, 2017 10:10 am

I have now received the birth certificate for Alice MARTIN. As always, it raises more questions than answers.

(1) It gives the DOB as 11 Apr 1876, whereas the DOB given in the 1939 register by the Alice PRIOR (née GILBERT), that I am interested in,is 10 Mar 1876. Close but significantly different.

(2) The father is named as Edward MARTIN, a builder's labourer, who is unknown to me, though as I have already indicated the name MARTIN is significant. Alice's mother was certainly Harriet GILBERT (née MARDELL). Her supposed father - or at least the one named on her marriage certificate - was James GILBERT, who died in Dec 1873. His first wife who died very young in 1861 was Emma Frances MARTIN. The Martin family and Gilbert remained on good terms, as Emma's mother Mary Ann DAY (formerly MARTIN, née WRIGHT) was a witness at James' marriage to Harriet.

(3) The mother is named as Harriet MARTIN, formerly MARDELL. This would make sense, except I can find no appropriate marriage and the name on Harriet's death certificate in 1889 is definitely MARDELL. On her death certificate, she is described as the widow of James Gilbert.

(4) The address given for Alice's birth and abode of her mother is Union Row, Tottenham. Union Row is where Harriet and Alice are living in 1881. And where Harriet died in 1889.

So several things point to this being the correct certificate, whilst others point in the opposite direction. Any suggestions?
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Re: William Henry GILBERT

Postby ianbee » Wed Jun 14, 2017 9:10 am

I think we expected, given the likely circumstances, that the info on the certificate would not be wholly accurate.
But the mother has the right name, and it seems the right address (Union Row)
It's disappointing that the date of birth does not tally with that given by Alice in 1939, but on the whole I would say that it is the person you are looking for.
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Re: William Henry GILBERT

Postby SDV » Wed Jun 14, 2017 10:32 am

Yes, I think on balance that you are right. It would have been nice to have a little more certainty, but there you go.

I think the way forward is trying to track down the father, Edward Martin. As I said before, the Martin name is significant, but also reasonably common. I really need to pin him down to the Martin family that I know is connected to the Mardell family.
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Re: William Henry GILBERT

Postby SDV » Mon Jun 26, 2017 2:02 pm

As I said in my previous post, I think it is possible, if not likely, that Edward MARTIN is Alice's father, though I am certain that her mother Harriet GILBERT (née MARDELL) never married him, as she died as a GILBERT.

Harriet MARDELL was James GILBERT's second wife, his first wife being Emma Frances MARTIN. I am assuming that the Edward MARTIN mentioned above is somehow connected to the same MARTIN family, but I am finding it hard to make the connection.

Any help in discovering the roots of Edward MARTIN would be much appreciated.

For the record, Emma Frances MARTIN was born 06 Oct 1840 in Edmonton to William MARTIN, a labourer, and his wife Mary Ann MARTIN (née WRIGHT). Her father died before Emma's marriage to James GILBERT, her mother re-marrying to David DAY.
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