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John Matthews b.1820, Devon - died ????

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John Matthews b.1820, Devon - died ????

Postby Cachalot6972 » Sun Mar 26, 2017 12:05 pm

Greetings one and all. This is my first post on here so please be gentle with me...

And apologies if you think towards the end of the following it's getting a bit like War and Peace.

One of my major brick walls, which seems to have been getting ever higher for the past 10 years or so is finding the death of of my g-g grandfather John Matthews, bap 07 Jan 1821, Churston Ferrers, Devon.
Most of his parent's (John Matthews & Mary, nee Bennetts) children were baptised fairly quickly after birth so a notional dob for John could be mid-Dec 1820.

Marriage: John Matthews = Rosetta Churchward Martin 09 Apr 1844 Churston Ferrers, Devon.

He and Rosetta are in all the censuses until 1871. No trace so far of Rosetta in 1881. Rosetta resurfaces in 1891 as a visitor at 24 Silchester Road, Kensington as a widow.
Rosetta died 29 Nov 1891 and against 'Occupation' on the death entry, it states
"Widow of John MATTHEWS Domestic Gardener from 24 Silchester Road".
Intriguingly, in the 1881 census there is an entry against 17 Silchester Terrace, Kensington which notes "left gone to Devon".
Also in the 1881 census, at 5 Thomas Place, Hammersmith, there is a John Matthews age 48 and born in 'Devonshire' along with his son, Robert, age 13, born in Torquay. Between 1864 & 1870 I can only find one Robert Matthews born in Torquay, and that was John's son (dob 30 Nov 1866). Although both their ages are some years out, right now they are my prime candidates.

I’ve found as many marriage records for their children as I can and even up to the latest one on 29 Sep 1881 it doesn’t specifically state that John was deceased - although obviously he may have been but the info wasn't volunteered to the registrar.
He was certainly alive at the time of the 1871 census, but he was gone by the time of the 1891 census.
It's trying to work out exactly where he could have died that 's driving me crazy. I would have expected him to have died in London or Devon, but no, of course it seems he didn't.
So far I’ve obtained the death records of 6 wrong John Matthews and it’s now getting a tad expensive!
He isn't:
John Matthews - 56 - French polisher - 07/07/1875 Westminster
John Matthews - 60 - Bricklayer - 04/06/1880 - Deptford
John Matthews - 65 - Pantomimist - 25/07/1885 - St Saviour, Surrey
John Matthews - 65 - Stoker at gas works - 19/10/1885 - Bristol
John Matthews - 69 - Retired mathematical instrument maker - 03/07/1888 - Hackney
John Matthews - 67 - Waiter - 09/12/1889 - West Ham

FreeBMD comes up with 61 John Matthews deaths between 1871 Q1 & 1891 Q4. Five of them have a middle name which rules them out and 32 of them are between 1881 Q1 & 1891 Q4.
If that is 'my' John in the 1881 census, it means I have a 10-year span when he could have died and I don't particularly want to spend up to £200 on certificates just to find him! I've also trawled through the probatesearch website between 1871 & 1891, but of course, no will...

If anyone has or knows of any other John Matthews deaths between 1871 and 1891 that I can cross off my list to try and narrow it down a bit, please let me know - or if you have a John Matthews in your tree and have obtained an incorrect certificate. My John's occupation was a gardener and it looks like he was living in Silchester Road, Kensington.

And lastly - can anyone suggest what to try next?

Many thanks for reading if you made it this far!

Phil
Phil

Indecision is the key to flexibility...
Cachalot6972
 
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Re: John Matthews b.1820, Devon - died ????

Postby ianbee » Sun Mar 26, 2017 2:03 pm

Hi
This death possibilty ties in with the 1881 census
June 1881 Fulham 1a 119
Matthews, John
age 58

I don't think that the wording on Rosetta's death certificate necessarily means that John Matthews himself was ever living in Silchester Road?
Ian
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Re: John Matthews b.1820, Devon - died ????

Postby ianbee » Sun Mar 26, 2017 2:51 pm

Only five people have that reference, 1a 119, in June 1881 GRO death index (according to FreeBMD)
No one is indexed on page 120
Fulham district deaths continue on page 121 (and should be a different sub district to page 119)

I think I can find the other four on page 119 in the 1881 census, albeit the surnames are common ones. What is interesting is that they were all living in Hammersmith.
So we can reasonably speculate that the John Matthews death was in a Hammersmith sub district, and most likely was right near the end of the June quarter.
What I can't find in Hammersmith (or Fulham) in the 1881 census is a 58 year old or thereabouts John Matthews
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Re: John Matthews b.1820, Devon - died ????

Postby ianbee » Sun Mar 26, 2017 3:37 pm

ianbee wrote:I think I can find the other four on page 119 in the 1881 census, albeit the surnames are common ones. What is interesting is that they were all living in Hammersmith.

All living in the sub district of St Peter Hammersmith (the other Hammersmith sub district in 1881 was St Paul)
Ditto those I looked at on page 118.
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Re: John Matthews b.1820, Devon - died ????

Postby Cachalot6972 » Mon Mar 27, 2017 10:45 am

Many thanks for your replies.
I can only speculate why John's age given in the census is 10 years out - and I mistakenly put his place of birth as Devonshire instead of England, which seems to indicate that whoever gave the info to the enumerator didn't know either of them very well - but the Hammersmith death might be worth a punt. I had originally discounted it because in censuses up to 1871, John's age was pretty accurate and I was looking for deaths which reflected that accuracy. As we all know though, 'tain't necessarily so!
I agree with your observation about Rosetta's occupation. The record I have is a handwritten one from Kensington & Chelsea rather than the GRO, so there might be a comma after the word 'Gardener' in the original.
I'll update this thread when I've received the Hammersmith death certificate...

Thanks again,

Phil
Phil

Indecision is the key to flexibility...
Cachalot6972
 
Posts: 115
Joined: Sat Mar 25, 2017 1:51 pm
Location: Brittany, in the land of cheap wine and cheese...

Re: John Matthews b.1820, Devon - died ????

Postby Cachalot6972 » Mon Apr 03, 2017 7:38 pm

Just a brief update until I get my hands on the certificate: John Matthews, age 58, Gardener, date of death 28 Jun 1881 at 5 Thomas Place, Hammersmith. So this is definitely the same person who is in the 1881 census and who seemed to be my missing John Matthews. The only fly in the ointment is his age, which should be 60. Still, it seems that particular brick has finally been knocked down, but as we all know, as soon as you step over the rubble, you walk straight into the next one!
There's no London burial on DeceasedOnline for him unfortunately, but I'll check the Devon records when I'm back in the UK to see if he was taken back there for burial.
Phil

Indecision is the key to flexibility...
Cachalot6972
 
Posts: 115
Joined: Sat Mar 25, 2017 1:51 pm
Location: Brittany, in the land of cheap wine and cheese...

Re: John Matthews b.1820, Devon - died ????

Postby Cachalot6972 » Fri Apr 07, 2017 3:47 pm

I now have the death certificate for John Matthews.
Registration District: Fulham. Sub-district: Saint Peter Hammersmith.
When & where died: 28 Jun 1881 5 Thomas Row | John Matthews | Male | 58 years | Gardener | Pneumonia Nephritis certified by William Causton M.R.C.S. | Informant: Harriet Panting Present at the death. 2 Henrietta Place, Hammersmith. | Date registered 30 Jun 1881 | W.F. Halsey Registrar.

At the moment, even though the age at death is out by a couple of years, I'm happy to think this is *my* John Matthews.

I've looked on my London street atlas but there's no Thomas Row and the only Henrietta Place is nowhere near Hammersmith. Harriet is the wife of Thomas Panting, a basket maker, so the reason why she was present at John's death is one of life's lttle mysteries...

Thanks again for your help on this.
Phil

Indecision is the key to flexibility...
Cachalot6972
 
Posts: 115
Joined: Sat Mar 25, 2017 1:51 pm
Location: Brittany, in the land of cheap wine and cheese...

Re: John Matthews b.1820, Devon - died ????

Postby ianbee » Sat Apr 08, 2017 10:40 am

Hi
That's good news, it does seem to be the right John.
Still a bit of mystery as to where Rosetta was in the census, and her not being the informant on the death certificate adds to that perhaps.
Possibly you are a bit lucky to have got John in 1881, he was in a continuation of enumeration district 2 in St Peter Hammersmith (2b on ancestry), only a few pages, some of which are badly damaged. Doesn't look to me as though the last image (9 of 10 on ancestry) is actually the last census page, perhaps some are missing?

I haven't found Thomas Place marked on a map, but the ed description says, bounded on the west by Grove Road, north by Great Western main road, east by Hammersmith Creek, south by the River Thames.
From which we can see it's approximate location on the 1893 OS map
http://maps.nls.uk/geo/explore/#zoom=18 ... rs=163&b=1
(once we get rid of the message!)
Directly to the east of Theresa Mews is Thomas's Row.
Thomas Row is on the next page after John in Thomas Place in 1881, just before they start to be damaged. Two pages after that is Theresa....

If you scroll south east on the map, from The Creek, near the River Thames, is Aspen Place, which was apparently previously known as Henrietta Place.
Ian
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Re: John Matthews b.1820, Devon - died ????

Postby Cachalot6972 » Sat Apr 08, 2017 3:50 pm

Hi Ian,
Thanks for the link to the map, mind-bogglingly interesting comparing the old map with Google Earth.

I think the confusion between Thomas Row & Thomas Place is down to the enumerator. On the page with John, it's Thomas Place, then it goes to Thomas Cottages, then the numbering continues upwards on the following page with Thomas Row. His death record has Thomas Row anyway.
I've had a look at the area on Google Earth and Street View, and as near as I can work out, where Thomas Row used to be is the disabled car parking area for the London Hammersmith Premier Inn.
I'm back in the UK at the end of May and into June so might just take a trip to London and pay a quick visit to the area.

Of course, one of the questions raised is why Harriet Panting was present at John's death. As far as I know at the moment, there is no connection between the two families. There must have been something though, there's a good 20 mins walk between the two places.

I think you're right about Aspen Place being Henrietta Place. In the 1881 census, the Pantings are in between Waterloo St & Trafalgar St; there seems to be a small group of 3 of houses running from the corner of Trafalgar St - and as far as I can tell, those houses were under where the A4 now passes Hammersmith Town Hall!

Thanks again,
Phil
Phil

Indecision is the key to flexibility...
Cachalot6972
 
Posts: 115
Joined: Sat Mar 25, 2017 1:51 pm
Location: Brittany, in the land of cheap wine and cheese...


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