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John Alexander (Mc)Innes - A mystery?

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John Alexander (Mc)Innes - A mystery?

Postby Narnster » Sun Mar 05, 2017 9:35 pm

My ancestor is Mary Boothman, nee Innes (or Ennis or McInnes) born c1855 in Carlisle according to censuses. I can only find Mary McInnes born 1855 but think this is correct because her mother’s maiden name is Gray (GRO), the same as her siblings. Siblings are 1) John Gray (Mc)Innes (I have his will) born Hawick c1849. (I cannot find any record of his birth and have also checked with Maxwell Ancestry who are experts in the records from the Borders in particular who say some Hawick records are missing.) 2) Jane born c1853 Scotland, died 1861 Brampton, Cumberland. 3) Jessie Scott Innes born 1858 Brampton and 4) Francis born 1861 and died 1862 Brampton.
I have the 1848 marriage record for Mary’s parents: John Alexander McInnes (of Galashiels) and Jessie Gray (of Hawick) from the Galashiels Kirk Session. On Mary’s parish marriage record it is written as Ennis but she has signed it Innes. Her first child has Ennis as the mother’s maiden name (GRO) but the rest of the family (seven of them) state Innes.
So... my puzzle is Mary’s father and this is blocking progress. I think 1851 he’s in Lambly as John McInnes along with his wife Jessie and son John and also Collin, Agnes and Rodrick Munro who are relatives. In 1861 he’s along the railway line (he’s an engine fitter) at Kirkhouse (Farlam Parish) with wife Jessie, John G, Jane, Mary and Jessie S. (This census has been transcribed as Jones.) Ok so far but then I found the family gravestone at Kirkhouse Graveyard!

In memory of JOHN ALEXANDER INNES who died May 20th1860 aged 42 years. Was interred at Carlisle Cemetery
Also JESSIE wife of the above who died January 14th 1875 aged 45 years.
JOHN GRAY INNES beloved husband of JANE ANN INNES, Castle Carrock who died April 17th 1919 aged 69 years.
Also JOHN ALEXANDER dearly loved son of JOHN GRAY INNES who died Sept ? 1886 aged 8 years.
Also JANE ANN INNES wife of the above JOHN GRAY INNES who died on March? ???? aged ? years.


I cannot find John Alexander Innes’ death in any records and I have checked all I can think of including newspapers. Carlisle Cemetery Records Office has no record of this death and they have checked all variations of the surname and all 1860s. I have checked the microfilm of Carlisle Cemetery. Additionally John appears on the 1861 census! Jessie is a widow in 1871. Something else is that son Francis was born Jun Q 1861 (possible at a very big stretch if JAI’s death is correct) though I can’t find a baptism record and I’ve checked the microfilm of the parish register but his burial is there. I need to find JAI’s birth too but I can’t even send for his death certificate... Any ideas would be very gratefully received!!
Narnster
 
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Re: John Alexander (Mc)Innes - A mystery?

Postby ianbee » Mon Mar 06, 2017 12:25 am

Hi
It certainly Iooks like the year on that gravestone must be wrong, if John's alive in the 1861 census!
They were in Brampton RD then, but it says John Alexander was interred in Carlisle Cemetery, not that far away.
Crazy possibility (sorry!) -
In June qtr 1861, Carlisle 10b 288, there is a death of a William Innes, age 42
Same age as John in the 1861 census (taken 7 April), but there appears to be no William Innes in that census in Carlisle district. Has that death been checked out, in case of some name mix up?
I've been looking at the other names on page reference 288, those I've found died in May, a couple of them in the Infirmary in Carlisle (one was in a railway accident, another in a cart overturn caused by a runaway horse)
Which led me on to the death announcements in the Carlisle Journal newspaper, 24 May 1861
which says
At the Infirmary, on the 21st inst., William Innes, aged 42 years

So we have your John, 42, in the 1861 census, but said to have died 20 May 1860 (which is impossible)
and William Innes, 42, died 21 May 1861, in Carlisle Infirmary
But if, say, William Innes was interred at Carlisle Cemetery then for him to be your man, the possible name mix up would have been made three times, on the death reg, the burial, as well as in the newspaper. Which does I admit seem somewhat unlikely!

Might be worth getting the birth cert of Francis perhaps?
Ian
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Re: John Alexander (Mc)Innes - A mystery?

Postby Narnster » Mon Mar 06, 2017 10:31 pm

Hi Ian
Thanks for taking the time to have a look at this. I'm fairly sure it isn't William Innes as I found him in the Carlisle Cemetery records and it gives his address as Grapes Lane, Carlisle. This doesn't really match up as this street was a crowded area in the centre of Carlisle, now known as The Lanes Shopping Centre. The only birth of a John Alexander Innes I can find is in Cullen, Banff in 1816; several people have him in their trees but have his death as 1822. I believe this isn't correct because there's a photo of the 1822 death gravestone via Family Search and he's clearly 18 years old! This therefore means I can't rule JAI born 1816 as my person. I did wonder if there'd been an accident and he'd ended up in a Carlisle hospital and so buried there but I didn't get the results from the newspaper search that you did!! I'll send for Francis' birth certificate as you suggest but that still leaves the puzzle of where and when JAI's death occurred if Jessie was a widow by 1871. I wonder if it should have been 1870... I don't suppose the cemetery office checked that... but even so there aren't even any maybes in all the searches... Thank you again. Narnie
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Re: John Alexander (Mc)Innes - A mystery?

Postby Narnster » Tue Mar 07, 2017 3:07 pm

Ian, I forgot to ask... Page 288 of what?
Also, where are you accessing the Carlisle newspapers? I have a fmp subscription but they aren't coming up! (I'm sure they have before though.) Thanks

Sent from my Lenovo A6020a40 using WDYTYA Forum mobile app
Narnster
 
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Re: John Alexander (Mc)Innes - A mystery?

Postby ianbee » Tue Mar 07, 2017 5:43 pm

Hi
The page number, 288, is the death reference (vol 10b) for William Innes in June qtr 1861. I was trying to get a rough idea of when he might have died as I couldn't see anyone of that name in Carlisle in the 1861 census (which was taken early in that quarter)
I am not sure if he comes up in a newspaper search, I came across the death notice when looking up one of the other names on page 288!
But searching for "21st" in the Carlisle Journal, 24th May 1861, brings up the transcription
"... Infirmary, on the 21st inst., William lnnes, aged 42 years;"
It seems that the OCR has read the capital i as an l.
I think the Carlisle papers are indeed on findmypast (but I use the BNA!)

Is all the other info on the memorial inscription accurate?
Ian
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Re: John Alexander (Mc)Innes - A mystery?

Postby Narnster » Mon Jun 12, 2017 9:58 pm

ianbee (or anyone else that fancies taking a look at this), apologies for coming back after a rather long pause!! All the other information on the gravestone is correct and I now have baby Francis' death certificate that shows his mother was a widow by 3rd March 1862 so the window of the death I'm looking for (John Innes) is narrowing. I've just sent for the death certificate for William Innes* because the whole thing is such a mystery I need to see if that sheds light on the matter. I've found everything you mentioned you had found apart from the railway accident related death in the infirmary! Where did you find this information? How did you know that the death was in the infirmary and that it was from a railway accident? Sorry if I'm missing something obvious! As John was an engine fitter I'm very interested in this. (I did find the overturned cart story though.) Baby Francis was born on 17 May 1861 and although John Innes is shown as his father, his mother Jessie is the informant. John is on the 1861 census.

*I had ruled William Innes out intially because I said he lived in Grapes Lane. I absolutely cannot find this information again so am now doubting myself! Everything fits apart from the first name!!! :x

Any suggestions would be gratefully received!
Narnster
 
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Re: John Alexander (Mc)Innes - A mystery?

Postby jimbo50 » Tue Jun 13, 2017 11:13 am

In memory of JOHN ALEXANDER INNES who died May 20th1860 aged 42 years. Was interred at Carlisle Cemetery
Also JESSIE wife of the above who died January 14th 1875 aged 45 years.
JOHN GRAY INNES beloved husband of JANE ANN INNES, Castle Carrock who died April 17th 1919 aged 69 years.
Also JOHN ALEXANDER dearly loved son of JOHN GRAY INNES who died Sept ? 1886 aged 8 years.
Also JANE ANN INNES wife of the above JOHN GRAY INNES who died on March? ???? aged ? years

Do you not think that this gravestone was scribed after 1919 on the death of John Gray Innes ?
Memory faded, that might not only put the John Alexander death date but also the place of burial in doubt.
The stone would probably have been ordered by a descendant of JAI and JGI.
Perhaps they had the same trouble.
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Re: John Alexander (Mc)Innes - A mystery?

Postby ianbee » Tue Jun 13, 2017 5:10 pm

Hi
It was John Studholme who died in a railway accident. Age 20. Reported in the Carlisle Journal, 10 May 1861, page 5 (Fatal Accident on the North British Railway). He had been taken to Carlisle Infirmary.
Ian
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Re: John Alexander (Mc)Innes - A mystery?

Postby Narnster » Tue Jun 20, 2017 9:07 pm

Thank you ianbee and jimbo50. I do agree about the stone; I think it was possibly ordered by JGI's daughter, or at least her husband who was executor of the will. (I would upload a photo of the stone but it's too big!) So, opinions again please... I have received the death certificate of the William Innes previously discussed. He died in Carlisle Infirmary on 20th May 1861 and is buried in Carlisle Cemetery, he's aged 42 and he's a blacksmith. (The informant seems to be from the hospital.) That compares with my John, who the stone says died on 20th May 1860 aged 42 and was interred at Carlisle Cemetery. My John was a blacksmith/Engine Fitter/Fitter. Ian, I was wasting my time looking for a railway accident, the cause of death for 'William' Innes was a faecal abscess! :shock: Poor chap!! (I can't find trace of a William Innes in Carlisle at that time.)

I've been looking for other clues too. John Alexander Innes had a son and two daughters that survived. His son (JGI) called his son John Alexander; One daughter called her first two sons John and William and the other called her first son John William! I've been pondering on why there is no baptism for his son Francis, but if this is my man then his poor wife had just given birth to Francis on the 17th, 3 days before her husband died. She had four other children, one of whom died a few months later. No wonder she didn't get round to baptising little Francis, who also died, aged 10 months! I can't think of any more documents that would help solve this. What I really want is to find JAI's birth, but that's another problem!
Narnster
 
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Re: John Alexander (Mc)Innes - A mystery?

Postby Narnster » Wed Jun 21, 2017 10:29 pm

Thanks for replying with that link. It was both informative and nauseating in equal measure!!! I think it means it might have been bowel cancer...

My problem now is knowing whether or not William is actually the John that I'm looking for. What are the chances that a mistake like this would made? (Though I'm intrigued by both daughters choosing the names of John and William... It wasn't their husband's father's name.)
Narnster
 
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