Moderator Control Panel ]

Margot Grahame (clark)

A problem shared is a problem halved. Post your brick walls here and see whether you can offer advice to others

Re: Margot Grahame (clark)

Postby ianbee » Wed Mar 15, 2017 2:17 pm

The only person with the first name Graham registered in Marylebone around the appropriate time appears to be -
June 1908 Marylebone 1a 491
Pasbach, Graham
mother Thomas

So the mother's 's maiden surname is the same as for Margo Clarke in Canterbury (albeit Thomas is a common surname)
There doesn't seem to be much sign of a Graham Pasbach around later, so could Sydney Graham have been his father, or could at least his mother be the same lady who was later with Sydney?

There is a marriage, 14 December 1902, at St Stephen's Ealing
Adolph Pasbach, 28, Bachelor, Singer, father Charles Augustus Pasbach, Gentleman
+
Susannah Thomas, 24, Spinster, father John Thomas (deceased), Engineer

They had a son, John Charles Francis Pasbach, born 23 July 1905
Adolph Francois Pasbach formally changed his name to Frank Melville by deed poll in 1921
https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/iss ... 8/data.pdf

I can't see either Adolph or Susannah as Pasbach in 1911. I think Adolph might have already been using the Melville name -
19 Albany Street, St Pancras
Frank Melville, Boarder, 36, Married, Vocalist, born Regents Park

A divorce record at TNA
Divorce Court File: 8868.
Appellant: Adolph Pasbach.
Respondent: Susannah Pasbach.
Co-respondent: [...] Graham.
Type: Husband's petition for divorce [HD].
Date: 1916
Reference: J 77/1275/8868
Held by: The National Archives, Kew
Legal status: Public Record(s)
Closure status: Open Document, Open Description

Frustratingly, these divorce records are on ancestry up to the previous year, 1915!
So, could Gwendoline Thomas have been Susannah?
A New Zealand newspaper report says that both of Margot's parents had been actors at one time. And changing names is not uncommon in that profession!
file:///C:/Users/public_access/Downloads/CHP19350920.1.5.pdf
Ian
ianbee
 
Posts: 2292
Joined: Wed Jul 28, 2010 4:51 pm

Re: Margot Grahame (clark)

Postby petersmee » Wed Mar 15, 2017 4:11 pm

Wow, it's very odd that it's so difficult to find a baptism. Do you have the title of NZ newspaper & date & I'll see if I can find it? Sydney is a Commercial Traveller in 1911 Census.
I didn't think her parents did divorce, but its worth a look.
Thanks
petersmee
 
Posts: 7
Joined: Tue Jul 17, 2012 10:35 pm

Re: Margot Grahame (clark)

Postby ianbee » Wed Mar 15, 2017 5:16 pm

See Papers Past
https://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/newsp ... 0thomas%22

My thought is that just possibly Margot's mother was already married - to Adolph Pasbach - hence there being no marriage to Sydney Graham
Mr Pasbach has filed for divorce in 1916, by which time Margot and her parents were supposed to have been in South Africa.
The only way of ascertaining whether this is correct would be to see what Adolph Pasbach had to say in his petition

Incoming Passengers
Name: Sydney Graham
Birth Date: abt 1869
Age: 58
Port of Departure: Durban, South Africa
Arrival Date: 17 Jan 1927
Port of Arrival: Southampton, England
Ship Name: Edinburgh Castle
Shipping line: Union-Castle Mail Steamship Company Ltd
Official Number: 129088

It says that he is a Commercial Traveller
Proposed address Craven Hotel, Craven St, Strand W.C.
Country of last permanent residence South Africa
intended future permanent residence England
Ian
ianbee
 
Posts: 2292
Joined: Wed Jul 28, 2010 4:51 pm

Re: Margot Grahame (clark)

Postby ianbee » Sun Jul 23, 2017 9:28 pm

ianbee wrote:A divorce record at TNA
Date: 1916
Reference: J 77/1275/8868

Frustratingly, these divorce records are on ancestry up to the previous year, 1915!


They've added a year!
ianbee
 
Posts: 2292
Joined: Wed Jul 28, 2010 4:51 pm

Re: Margot Grahame (clark)

Postby LisaLime7 » Sat Jan 20, 2018 5:18 am

Hi Pete, how did you go with your quest for information regarding Margot Grahame? I am looking for her parents in the hope that I can sort out the mystery in my family. Margot was the niece of my Great-Aunt's husband.
LisaLime7
 
Posts: 9
Joined: Sat Jan 20, 2018 5:04 am

Re: Margot Grahame (clark)

Postby petersmee » Sat Jan 20, 2018 10:29 am

Hi Lisa,
Bit of a mixed bag to be honest. I am really confused. Margo Grahame Clarke born in Canterbury , Kent 20 Feb 1911 with Mother's maiden name being Thomas. 1911 Census has Sydney Grahame with wife Gwen & children Graham & Margot at same address as birthplace. So far, so good.
Why the change in surname?
I can't find a marriage between a Sydney Grahame (born 1868 per Census) & a Gwendoline Thomas (born 1878 per Census)! They are both in 1930 & 1937 Electoral Register. Also struggling to identify a Gwendoline Thomas born in Neath at this time.
Family tradition has it that 'Margo is the great granddaughter of Aunt Betty (llansamlet), daughter of Catherine Thomas'. I have not managed to make this link back to the Rees family. Any help you can give would be most helpful. Do you have your tree on Ancestry?
Regards Pete
petersmee
 
Posts: 7
Joined: Tue Jul 17, 2012 10:35 pm

Re: Margot Grahame (clark)

Postby LisaLime7 » Sun Jan 21, 2018 5:14 am

Hi Pete,
I am not going to be much help to you and what you have said has turned my research on it's head. I was running with the name Clarke, not Grahame. I will tell you what I know and what I thought I knew!

My great-aunt Elsie Davies was born in Wales in 1901. She married a Bertie Sayers-Clarke who was the uncle of Margot Grahame. There are two ways I can go with this. Firstly, I don't think that "Sayers" is part of the name. I can find a marriage registration for Elsie and Albert H Clarke in 1927. Elsie's death certificate for 1959 says Sayers-Clarke as do the Electoral Registers. I cannot find a death certificate for Bertie and although I know they were in England in 1939 I cannot find them on the 1939 Register. Following this through I found Bertie (1898) on the 1901 Register with brother Frank Clarke who I took to be Margot's father (1885), sister Ivy (1889) and parents George and Jane Clarke.

However, if I believe the Sayers-Clarke name is correct then Bertie came from Melbourne and he is 20 years older than I thought. He was also married with a child both of whom died before the marriage to Elsie in 1927.

In light of your information, neither of these two scenarios can be correct although they both have elements in them that could be true. Bertie and Elsie didn't have any children. The reason I was looking up Margot Grahame was to try to find out about the Clarke and Sayers-Clarke names and where they were in 1939. I know that Bertie died before Elsie but as I said I can't find out when.

Also, according to Wikipedia, Margot and family went to South Africa in 1914 so maybe her parents never lived in England again.

Lisa
LisaLime7
 
Posts: 9
Joined: Sat Jan 20, 2018 5:04 am

Re: Margot Grahame (clark)

Postby JMcK » Sun Jan 21, 2018 10:07 am

However, if I believe the Sayers-Clarke name is correct then Bertie came from Melbourne and he is 20 years older than I thought. He was also married with a child both of whom died before the marriage to Elsie in 1927


I don't quite follow your logic for this, but if correct then a possible scenario that would fit would be. EDIT, i see now, i've just found the 1911 census.

Bertie (Albert H) Clarke and Sydney Grahame are brothers. And Sydney was originally Clarke but for acting purposes has changed it to Grahame. So if you could find a Sydney Clarke and an Albert Clarke born to the same parents in Melbourne.... Do you have the name of Albert's father on his & Elsie Davis's marriage cert? EDIT 1911 census tells us Albert's mother was Mary Ann, born Sydney Australia about 1841
Last edited by JMcK on Sun Jan 21, 2018 11:23 am, edited 3 times in total.
JMcK
 
Posts: 306
Joined: Thu Feb 02, 2017 7:59 pm

Re: Margot Grahame (clark)

Postby JMcK » Sun Jan 21, 2018 10:15 am

Incidentally the divorce papers for the Pasbach couple that Ianbee found are on ancestry and he names Mr Graham and says that Susanna nee Thomas and Mr Graham have had 2 children. The Thomas/Pasbach marriage cert is with the papers.

also confirmed in the divorce papers is that the Pasbach's had just the one son John named as Jack in the divorce - custody to Adolph
JMcK
 
Posts: 306
Joined: Thu Feb 02, 2017 7:59 pm

Re: Margot Grahame (clark)

Postby JMcK » Sun Jan 21, 2018 10:50 am

Firstly, I don't think that "Sayers" is part of the name. I can find a marriage registration for Elsie and Albert H Clarke in 1927. Elsie's death certificate for 1959 says Sayers-Clarke as do the Electoral Registers. I cannot find a death certificate for Bertie and although I know they were in England in 1939 I cannot find them on the 1939 Register.


According to the newspapers in July 1939 they have a shop in the High Street, Stevenage, but like you I cannot see them there on the register.
JMcK
 
Posts: 306
Joined: Thu Feb 02, 2017 7:59 pm

PreviousNext

Return to General research queries


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 7 guests

cron