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WW1 Alfred Lomas and Record Confusion

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WW1 Alfred Lomas and Record Confusion

Postby bornintoit » Sun Jan 01, 2017 1:30 pm

Hi,

I am trying to find out more about my great grandfathers military career. He was a part of the Royal Artillery in WW1. I have found some records on ancestry regarding what could be one Alfred Lomas or two Alfred Lomas' who were serving in the Royal Artillery at this time.

In the first record a service medal and award roll the unit listed is R.A.V.C with a regimental number of SE/3571 and it says he was transferred to the R.F.A Unit with a regimental number of 178289 with his rank stated as a gunner. The Medal Awarded: 1914-15 Star. The date and place of this document is 01/06/1920 in Woolwich.

The second record is a service medal and award roll which has Alfred Lomas listed as having a regimental number of 248140 in the R.F.A Unit with rank stated as gunner. Medal Awarded: British War Medal and Victory Medal. The date and place of this document is 03/06/1920 in Woolwich.

Are these two different Alfred Lomas' who just happen to be serving in the same unit? I have noticed that no other soldier listed are on both records. Also if they are two different Alfred Lomas' how would I go about finding out which one relates to my great grandfather? I am new to researching my family history so if anyone could point me in the right direction I would be very grateful.

I have attached the two army photos I have of Alfred Lomas in uniform and mounted on horse.

Kind Regards

alfred.png
Alfred Lomas
alfred.png (965.2 KiB) Viewed 2203 times


alfredlomas.png
Alfred Lomas 1
alfredlomas.png (1.34 MiB) Viewed 2203 times
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Re: WW1 Alfred Lomas and Record Confusion

Postby AdrianB38 » Sun Jan 01, 2017 8:21 pm

They are totally different guys (it's hardly noteworthy that they have the same name - the RFA was huge!). A WW1 Medal Index Card is supposed to record all campaign medals for WW1 for a soldier.

The RFA only guy was issued with the Victory and British War Medals.

The other chap served first in the Veterinary Corps, then the RFA. He was issued with the Victory and British War Medals and the 1914-15 Star, meaning he was out of the UK and in a war zone before the end of 1915 - unlike the other chap who didn't get the Star so would have been first out of the UK after 1/1/1916.

It is possible that a single soldier has 2 WW1 Medal Index Cards for his campaign medals but this will be obvious because they have the same unit and serial number.

You will need to do some more research to find out which is which - start with http://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/
Adrian
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Re: WW1 Alfred Lomas and Record Confusion

Postby AdrianB38 » Sun Jan 01, 2017 8:25 pm

Update - 3571 is in the Ancestry WW1 Service Records (and probably therefore in the FMP ones) - he's not obvious because the indexers couldn't read Army Veterinary Corps.
Adrian
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Re: WW1 Alfred Lomas and Record Confusion

Postby bornintoit » Tue Jan 03, 2017 4:17 pm

Thank you for your reply and advice.

I have been trying to do some extra research to try and find out which one relates to my Alfred Lomas. I know that the hotel pictured behind Alfred and the horse is located in Germany in Heimbach which I have confirmed with someone in Germany. I am struggling to find any information on the British army and Heimbach during WW1. I have found a photo of Scottish troops which is entitled as having been took in Heimbach during WW1 but that is all so far. I know Alfred Lomas was back in England for his marriage in January 1918, the marriage records confirm this so was not on the Western Front at the end of WW1.
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Re: WW1 Alfred Lomas and Record Confusion

Postby AdrianB38 » Tue Jan 03, 2017 5:05 pm

Have you checked the Alfred Lomas numbered 3571 in the Ancestry WW1 Service Records?

His attestation forms (he has two, the 2nd, as is often the case, after the bulk of his documents) are quite difficult to read - possibly affected by water? The 2nd one seems to say that he married Fanny someone (Tomlinson?) in Manchester in 1903 and on joining up, had at least 5 children born in Rusholme or Longsight (both Manchester) from 1904 onwards. At the end of the war he was going to live in Rusholme.

Presumably this means that he was not your G-GF unless you are referring to a second marriage?

That being so, the apparent conclusion is that your G-GF is the other guy, i.e. he is 248140.

However, you have brought something else into play... This is where we really must be precise with terms like "during WW1". The British Army was never in Heimbach during WW1 for the simple reason that the Allies never entered Germany during WW1. What you have is a photo of your G-GF in Heimbach while he was in the (British) Army of Occupation after WW1. This matters because campaign medals were not issued for service in the Army of Occupation.

If you know that your G-GF was issued with campaign medals (e.g. because you've seen them or know who has them), then it's fine and he is 248140 (because he has to be one of those two and he's not the former 3571 - unless he did live in Rusholme). However, worst case scenario for you is that your G-GF never left the UK during WW1 (i.e. before 11/11/1918), only afterwards when he went out in the Army of Occupation - if that happened, then he didn't get any campaign medals and 248140 is someone else again.

Re "Alfred Lomas was back in England for his marriage in January 1918, the marriage records confirm this, so was not on the Western Front at the end of WW1" - sorry, that doesn't follow. He could have been back on leave (yes, it did happen) and married before returning to the Front.

You really need some indication that your G-GF was issued with the campaign medals - and I'm guessing you don't have access to them else we wouldn't be asking these questions?
Adrian
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Re: WW1 Alfred Lomas and Record Confusion

Postby MaureenE » Tue Jan 03, 2017 9:03 pm

Findmypast , database Royal Artillery attestations, has a record for a Fred Lomas, father Alfred, born Halifax Yorks, aged 26 at 18.2.19, 1029326.

I can't see how long he served.

Should these details fit, depending how long he served, perhaps it may be possible to obtain a record from the Ministry of Defence, Details on the FIBis Fibiwiki page British Army
http://wiki.fibis.org/index.php/British ... nuary_1921

Cheers
Maureen
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Re: WW1 Alfred Lomas and Record Confusion

Postby ianbee » Tue Jan 03, 2017 9:07 pm

Just to add to the confusion!
There's a marriage in January 1918, Christ Church, Pendlebury, of Alfred Lomas, 23. Bride was Esther Ormrod, 22.
Apparently it says that Alfred was a Blacksmith's Striker (father William, a Miner, if so then Alfred may have been baptized same church 4 February 1894)

A marriage in Derby, March qtr 1918, Alfred D. Lomas and Nellie Smith, they may have had a son registered same place in June 1920. Possibly that chap was Alfred Douglas Lomas?

A Lomas / mmn Tomlinson birth was registered Dec 1918, Chorlton.
Ian
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Re: WW1 Alfred Lomas and Record Confusion

Postby AdrianB38 » Tue Jan 03, 2017 9:27 pm

Hmm - I am totally unclear if the Ancestry search that I did would have picked up "Fred" as well as Alfred. But Maureen's post does begin to crystallise my concern about whether Alfred of the Army of Occupation is necessarily one of the Alfred Lomas soldiers who were given campaign medals.

My impression is that the intention was to demob WW1 soldiers as quickly a possible and that therefore the Army of Occupation might very well tend to have more recruits in it who'd never served abroad during the War itself, i.e. people who were never issued with campaign medals so didn't appear in the Medal Index Cards. In other words, Alfred Lomas of the Army of Occupation stands a good chance of not having any campaign medals - perhaps he was still in training at 11/11/18.

(I may have mentioned this before but there was a running joke in Dad's Army that Captain Mainwaring always refused to sanction the wearing of medals on Church Parade. Eventually they worked out that while that while they had all, Mainwaring included (but Pike excluded), sort of served in "the Last Lot", Mainwaring had only ever served in the Army of Occupation so had never been issued with any of the campaign medals that Jones, Fraser, Wilson, etc. could show off).
Adrian
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Re: WW1 Alfred Lomas and Record Confusion

Postby bornintoit » Tue Jan 03, 2017 10:35 pm

Thank you to everyone for your replies.

You all raise some very good points. Until I set out to find out the exact location of the photo me and my mother had thought our Alfred Lomas had been in France during the war itself as that is what my grandmother aka Alfred's daughter had told us and we had no reason to believe otherwise at the time. Perhaps he was only there during the Army of Occupation. Ianbee our Alfred Lomas did indeed marry Esther Ormrod in January 1918 in Pendlebury, Manchester and it does list his occupation as a blacksmith striker which is why I assumed he had left the army by that time (before I discovered the location of the photograph yesterday!)

I had forgotten that one of the photos (portrait photo) is in a postcard type form so I am attaching that now (sorry for forgetting!) but unfortunately due to the damage the date is difficult to make out.

alfredl.png
Back of postcard
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