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Irish birth place

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Irish birth place

Postby Abb1959 » Tue Dec 27, 2016 7:34 am

William Beattie was born in Ireland and died in Hartlepool in 1901. Until the birth of one of his sons, George, in Deptford, Kent, in 1866 his name was written as Baty. He was a Boiler Smith and worked in shipbuilding. He got married in Gateshead in 1856 to Jane Charlton. How can I discover where in Ireland he was born, given the Irish records are incomplete? Why might the surname have changed? Thank you for any advice.
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Irish birth place

Postby brunes08 » Wed Dec 28, 2016 9:51 am

The further back you go, the less likely the spelling of names will be consistent. Many people were semi or completely illiterate and wouldn't know how to spell their names and relied on others to do it for them. Then there is the issue with accents. Try, for example, listening to a strong Irish accent and then a Co. Durham one - names can sound very different. On one census, an ancestor of mine was born in Lincolnshire but the enumerator 'heard' Lancashire - which was the next county to where the family was living at the time. Even today - my surname has 6 letters - I have had many different versions written by other people. So do not worry about the change of spelling at this stage - just ensure you have the correct family group from all the documents you have.
I agree that Irish records are problematic but more and more are now available on line. Unfortunately, on the census returns I peeped at, William has only put Ireland as his place of birth. A County would have helped! Do you have a copy of his marriage certificate which 'should' have his father's name on it. That might help a little. I am away from home at the moment so do not have my notes on Irish sources but will have a look when I return.
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Re: Irish birth place

Postby brunes08 » Wed Dec 28, 2016 10:13 am

Me again! Just had a thought. I found this useful when helping a friend research Irish ancestors. The family was in Newcastle from the 1850s. We wondered why there in particular - obviously for work and to escape the famine - but looking at census sheets either side of the family, we found many Irish families with most coming from one particular county and some with the same surname. It seemed that individuals may have gone together or went to be near other relatives. That may help you to identify a possible county - not guaranteed but possible.
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Re: Irish birth place

Postby Abb1959 » Wed Dec 28, 2016 5:00 pm

Thank you brunes08 for your helpful suggestions. I have the marriage certificate, and his father was called John. I have found the Cork baptism record of a William Beatty with a father called John, and the date of the baptism fits with his age at marriage. But if the records for other counties were still available, then I might get another match. So I'm being cautious. I will check the birth place of his neighbours in 1861, before he left Tyneside to go to Deptford, London.

I'm keen to understand why he moved from shipbuilding in Tyneside - he was a Boiler Smith - to shipbuilding in Deptford, presumably at the naval dockyard. And then back to the North East. Was this because of the way the Irish were treated in the 1860's, or because his wife and family wanted to return to the North East? Or just because the dockyard closed? Was the name change a conscious decision?

I really need to find a record source created after he arrived in England, where he has given the place of his birth in Ireland.

Thanks again - much appreciated!


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Re: Irish birth place

Postby AdrianB38 » Wed Dec 28, 2016 5:51 pm

In the right accent, Beatty and Batey sound identical. The reason for the change? The answer to that will depend to some extent on whether he's literate enough to read his own name. And if not, who's written it down.

I gave up tracking spellings when I realised I was tracking the clerk, not the family.

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Re: Irish birth place

Postby AdrianB38 » Wed Dec 28, 2016 5:54 pm

By the way, skilled workers like boiler makers went a lot further than the clichés about our ancestors would have you believe. Who paid the best?

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Re: Irish birth place

Postby brunes08 » Thu Dec 29, 2016 4:11 pm

I've just googled 'Deptford Dockyard' - plenty of useful sites listed. The last ship built there was in 1869 so that may be why the family went back to the north east. There are also sites regarding dockyard records and archives including those held at the National Archives. You may possibly find some useful information there if you haven't looked already.
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Re: Irish birth place

Postby ianbee » Thu Dec 29, 2016 6:13 pm

Until 1911 the census just required "Ireland" as a birthplace. If extra info was given it's probably down to the whim of the individual enumerator as to whether he copied it up. Sometmes they did. It looks as though in 1861 in Heworth it gives nothing more specific than the country of Ireland for anyone born there, so looking at the neighbours probably wont help this time.

One question to ask about people who turn up somewhere is -
Did they come themselves, or were they brought?
You could be in luck!
1851 census of Heworth, Durham
They are Beattie, I think, but looks like BEATTIR or BEATTER (I'll assume it's meant to be Beattie for transcription purposes!)
piece 2401 folio 210 page 10
John Beattie Head 49 Lab, born Ireland
Elizabeth Beattie Wife Mar 45 Ireland
Mary Beattie Daur 20 Dress Maker Ireland
George Beattie Son 16 Boiler Maker Ireland
William Beattie Son 13 Scholar Ireland

Transcribed as Bratter on ancestry.
So I'm hoping that this is the right family. And if so, there are now five people for you to trace in the English records, rather than one!
In 1861 son George may be the George Battie, 26, Boilersmith, born Ireland, living in Hedworth, Monkton and Jarrow. Has a wife and three children. Piece 3795 folio 76 page 51
Ian
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Re: Irish birth place

Postby ianbee » Thu Dec 29, 2016 7:06 pm

Continuing to track George.
1871 in Hartlepool
piece 4914 folio 62 page 20
22 Town Wall
George Beattie Head Mar 37 Iron Ship Wright Ireland Cty Altham
Sarah Beattie Wife Mar 36 Iron Ship Wright Wife Durham
James Beattie Son Unm 16 Apprentice Durham Felling
Jane Beattie Daur Unm 14 Northumberland St Peters

Presumably Altham means Antrim
1881 and George is likely the widowed George Beattie, 46, in Clifton Street, Hartlepool. Born Antrim. Daughter Jane still with him.

Possible marriage?
Name: George Beattie
Age: 20
Spouse's Name: Sarah Nelson
Spouse's Age: 19
Event Date: 29 May 1853
Event Place: Gateshead
England Marriages, 1538–1973

GRO indexes - June qtr 1853 Gateshead, vol 10a page 573
Beattie, George
Nelson, Sarah

Possible birth registrations of the children as BATEY? Mother's maiden surname Nelson (info from new index on GRO website)
Sep 1853 Gateshead, John Batey
June 1855 Gateshead, James Batey
Dec 1857 Newcastle upon Tyne, Jane Batey
Ian
Last edited by ianbee on Thu Dec 29, 2016 7:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Irish birth place

Postby ksouthall » Thu Dec 29, 2016 7:10 pm

There's also a Henry Beattie (plus variant spellings) living in Heworth between 1851 and 1881 who was born in Ireland in 1826. He may be a relation. It looks like he could have been living in the same road as John Beattie in 1851. I'm tracking him to see if he gives more details of where he was born.

Henry appears to have married a Mary Cunningham on 25th July 1847 in Tynemouth and appears to have given his father's name as John (according to the England, Select Marriages, 1538 - 1973 record set on Ancestry.)
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