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Missing Aunt: Lilian Jones, Liverpool

A problem shared is a problem halved. Post your brick walls here and see whether you can offer advice to others

Missing Aunt: Lilian Jones, Liverpool

Postby jpb0205 » Thu Dec 22, 2016 6:52 pm

Hello and Merry Christmas everyone

I have a brick wall in my family research in the shape of my aunt Lilian Jones. My grandparents Richard Jones (b 1902, d 1947) and Louisa May nee Worthington (b 1920, d 1947) had 3 children, my birth mother Irene May Jones (b 1938, d 1996); Margaret Jones (b 1939, d 1941) and Lilian Jones (?b 11th July 1942). My grandparents both died in 1947 and the 2 surviving children were taken in by their aunt and uncle, Peter Cooke Jones (b 1908, d 1979) and Elizabeth Hilda nee Lee (b 1911, d 1975) who had 7 children of their own but found a place in their home and their hearts for the 2 orphaned nieces.

I have lots of records for my mother but very little for her sister Lilian. There is one photo from another Ancestry family tree but this provides a birth year of 1943 and a death year as 1965. The only evidence I have managed to find is Lilian's school record which gives her date of birth as 11th July 1942 but provides its own mystery as the address of the aunt and uncle is entered and then crossed through with an unknown address added.

My brother and sister tell me that our mum talked fondly of her sister and Lilian did die young, so they don't remember her, so she could have died at 21 but the other tree on Ancestry show a husband and child for Lilian, which we have no knowledge of. There are a massive amount of skeletons and some very painful memories attached to this family and when I ask any questions, doors very quickly close. I've managed to find out tiny bits and pieces by offering information I have researched but apart from this one photo and the school record, I have absolutely nothing. No birth, marriage or death record and despite ordering a number of possible certificates, I have never found any more evidence of Lilian.

Any help or advice would be invaluable to us, thank you for reading this and for any help you can offer.
jpb0205
 
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Re: Missing Aunt: Lilian Jones, Liverpool

Postby MayHam » Thu Dec 22, 2016 8:01 pm

There was a Lilian Jones, aged 21, who died in Liverpool South and registered Jan-Mar 1960.
http://www.freebmd.org.uk/cgi/districts ... 1479781955

I suspect she is the same as Lilian Jones born Jan-Mar 1940 in Liverpool South to a Jones.
http://www.freebmd.org.uk/cgi/districts ... 1479781955

You can search them here.
http://www.freebmd.org.uk/cgi/search.pl

Do you know the following person who seems to be working on your family as well?
https://www.liverpool-genealogy.org.uk/ ... =2&t=15367
MayHam
 
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Re: Missing Aunt: Lilian Jones, Liverpool

Postby jpb0205 » Fri Dec 23, 2016 7:32 am

Thank you MayHam but that's not the Lilian I am looking for. Even though the dates didn't fit with Margaret's birth, she was one of my possibles but it's not the correct person. I must be missing something somewhere but unless I can get the other family member to give me some more information, I don't know where to go now.

Two more things I forgot to mention last night is that both her husband and child are shown as private on the other tree but when I look at the tree as an Ancestry connection, it gives the husband's name as Robert. Another distant cousin I managed to find but who has a private tree said she thought the child's name was Sandra but I don't have any other evidence for this.

Thank you again for your help.
jpb0205
 
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Re: Missing Aunt: Lilian Jones, Liverpool

Postby ianbee » Fri Dec 23, 2016 9:08 am

Maybe husband not Robert?
Marriage, March 1960 Liverpool S. 10d 1131
Jones, Lilian E.
Reeves, William

Potentially up to three births registered afterwards, including one for the name you mentioned.
Possible death?
June 1964 Liverpool 10d 461
Reeves, Lilian E.
age 21
which would fit with a birth in July 1942.

But obviously I don't know whether this lady is the one you are looking for. All you could do is try for the marriage certificate.
Ian
ianbee
 
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Re: Missing Aunt: Lilian Jones, Liverpool

Postby jpb0205 » Fri Dec 23, 2016 11:50 am

Thank you very much Ian. I did look at that Lilian but couldn't find any birth records for her which put me off track a little. Perhaps I need to go back and look at this Lilian again.

Thanks again for your help .
jpb0205
 
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Re: Missing Aunt: Lilian Jones, Liverpool

Postby ianbee » Fri Dec 23, 2016 2:31 pm

jpb0205 wrote:but couldn't find any birth records for her

Hi
This is the problem! There is apparently no birth registration for Lilian Jones, mother Worthington, in England and Wales. I have kind of wondered if she might have been adopted by Richard and Louisa.
Remembering that she was born in the middle of WW2, when we know how important proof of identity was, it seems even more unlikely than usual that there would be no birth certificate for her.
On the other hand, births may not have taken place where they normally would.
Looking on ScotlandsPeople, there is a Lilian Elsie Jones registered in St Andrew (Edinburgh) in 1942. Does that look a possibility? Unfortunately there seems to be no way of ascertaining the maiden name of the mother without going the whole hog and ordering the certificate. Nor any clue as to what part of 1942 the birth was registered (unless we collated all the reference numbers for St Andrew in 1942 perhaps?)
I don't think she is in the Scottish marriage indexes, which might be a hopeful sign.

The wonderful new death index from the GRO, which gives the full names on the certificate, just what we need, only goes up to 1957. So I tried googling all these names.
Which brought up some stuff on myheritage.com. Most of it we can't see unless we subscribe. But apparently there is a tree on there which has a Lilian Elsie Reeves ("born Jones"). Born in Liverpool 1943, died 1964.
The date of birth given seems to be 27 March 1943.
But your Lilian was born 11 July 1942 from her school record.
So either not your Lilian, or else they have the wrong birth date!
Ian
ianbee
 
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Re: Missing Aunt: Lilian Jones, Liverpool

Postby MoVidger » Fri Dec 23, 2016 3:31 pm

As Ian has raised the chance of adoption, have you ruled out the possibility that Lilian might be an inter-family adoption? My mum had two cousins (brothers) that were "adopted" by an aunt when they were toddlers. Their birth mum had no interest in raising them herself, so she allowed her sister to adopt them. Both lads took the married surname of my great-aunt as they were growing-up, so it would cause confusion for anyone researching their origins.

You mention "painful memories" and "skeletons" are attached to the family you are researching. This is exactly how I would describe the lingering effects on my mum's two cousins.
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Re: Missing Aunt: Lilian Jones, Liverpool

Postby jpb0205 » Sat Dec 24, 2016 7:46 am

Thanks so much Ian and Mo for your help, which has give me more avenues to explore.

You could be correct about an adoption but I can't find anywhere it would fit, though oddly enough Richard Jones had a cousin named Elsie Lilian Jones but she was born in 1933 and died in 2012. I have wondered about an illegitimate birth, if Richard Jones had a child with another woman and she was taken in by the family.

The relationships are complicated because I was adopted within the family but my great grandmother always talked of René (Irene May) and Margaret but I never remember her speaking of a Lilian. I only found out about her when I met my sister and brother earlier this year and they talked of an Aunt Lily, our mum's sister. One of Richard's cousin was close to our mum, my brother has written to the last address he had for him but not had a response yet. He would be 86 now but if he is still alive, he may remember something important that will help us fill in some missing pieces.

Thank you again and Happy Christmas x
jpb0205
 
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