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James and William GILBERT

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James and William GILBERT

Postby SDV » Fri Dec 16, 2016 12:12 pm

James and William Gilbert were born c1838 and c1841 in Bermondsey, South London. Their father was James Gilbert, a carpenter, and their mother was Frances Favel. They lived in Chapel Place, Long Lane, Bermondsey.

James and Frances moved to Bermondsey, sometime after the birth of their first child, Susannah, in 1819. Two more girls, Eliza and Sophia, followed in 1821 and 1823, both of whom were baptised at St Mary's in Newington on 21 Mar 1824. Yet another girl, Sarah, was born in 1825. Then there was an apparent gap, before the birth in 1834 of Mary Ann. Both Sarah and Mary Ann were baptised at St George the Martyr in Southwark. Then as stated above came James born c1838 and William born c1841. I can find neither BMD records or baptism records for either of these two births.

In 1841, Eliza (18), Sarah (16), Mary Ann (7), James (3) and William (9 wks) were living with their parents, James (45) and Frances (40) at Chapel Place, Bermondsey. In 1851, following the death of their father in 1845, Eliza (29), Mary Ann (16), James (13) and William (10) were living with their mother at Gt Georges Place, Southwark.

The mother Frances seems to have re-married to a Thomas Britten (var sp), though I can find no record of the marriage, being described as Frances Britton in the 1861 census. By that time only one of her children, William (19), was still living in the family home.

Given the gap between the births of Sarah and Mary Ann there were probably other children who did not survive infancy. If there were such children, it would be nice to find some names for them. But my real interest is in finding:

(a) a birth record for James Gilbert (c1838-1873), as he was my 2x Great Grandfather.
(b) a birth record for William Gilbert (c1841-1870)
(c) a marriage record for Thomas Britton and Frances Gilbert

Any help gratefully received.
SDV
 
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Re: James and William GILBERT

Postby sdup26 » Sat Dec 17, 2016 6:33 pm

You say Frances 'seems to have remarried' to Thomas Britten (sic), and perhaps she did, and the marriage is elusive. James died in 1845, so she's a widow on the 1851 census. But did she then simply live with Thomas and use his surname for respectability, thus being described again as 'widow' and 'Britton' in 1861 when he'd left/died? Even if her death certificate (is it Mar Q 1871, Frances Britten, 71, St Saviour, 1d 32?) says she was the widow of Thomas Britten, as the information was given by whoever registered the death, they either believed it to be true, or were covering her reputation. This reads like a pathetic excuse for not finding a marriage, but is it a possibility?
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Re: James and William GILBERT

Postby SDV » Mon Dec 19, 2016 3:30 pm

Thomas BRITTEN died 30 June 1855 at the same address as Frances GILBERT/FAVEL. So by 1861 Frances would have been a widow, whether the widow of James Gilbert or Thomas BRITTEN is not clear.

And yes, Frances died as Frances BRITTEN in Feb 1871, unfortunately just before the 1871 census.

Interestingly, Thomas was buried in Victoria Park Cemetery, Hackney and Frances in Nunhead Cemetery, Camberwell. Her first husband, James, was buried in Bermondsey.
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Re: James and William GILBERT

Postby sdup26 » Tue Dec 20, 2016 3:09 pm

I expect you've ruled out the birth records for a James Gilbert a) JQ 1838 Camberwell, and b) MQ 1839 in Southwark? I can't see a birth/baptism for William in Surrey about 1841.
As to the gap of around 9 years between Sarah and Mary Ann, if other children were born and lost during that period with apparently no record of them, it suggests none made it to birth/baptism, which is very sad. Then suddenly there are three healthy children. Was the long gap because James was away from home for some reason? Mary Ann's birth pre-dated registration, but she was baptised like the rest, while the two boys seem to have been neither registered nor baptised, or at least, not under the name Gilbert. Is it possible they were not the sons of James and Frances? Have you accounted for their older daughters, especially Susannah?
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Re: James and William GILBERT

Postby SDV » Wed Dec 21, 2016 4:38 pm

Yes, I have checked both of those records in the past. The Camberwell reference has the mother's maiden name as Panther, and the Southwark one, assuming you are referring to St Saviours, has the mother's name as Smith.

With regard to Susannah Favill Gilbert, she was born on 21 April 1819 in Kensington and baptised on 30 April 1820 at St Mary Abbots in Kensington, her middle name being a variation of her mother's maiden name. Her parents also married at the same church in 1818. She married a James SMYTH on 10 Dec 1843 in Lambeth and died on 20 Jan 1878 at Greenwich.

Of the seven known children, the first five were all baptised: Susannah at St Mary Abbots in Kensington, Eliza and Sophia at St Mary's in Newington and Sarah and Mary Ann at St George the Martyr in Southwark.

In 1841, the family - with the exception of Susannah and Sophia - were living at Chapel Place, Long Lane, Bermondsey. Then the family were at St George's P;ace, Southwark from at least May 1845 when James died to Feb 1871 when Frances died. So I would assume that at the time of James' and William's births, the family were still in Bermondsey and that is where I should find a record of their births.
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Re: James and William GILBERT

Postby sdup26 » Wed Dec 21, 2016 5:56 pm

Sorry, I didn't make myself clear. I wondered about the possibility that James and William were the sons of one of James and Frances's married daughters, so might be registered under that married surname. I know they were listed as 'ditto' - i.e. Gilbert, in 1841, but was trying to cover all eventualities. In the end, it may be that the boys weren't registered because registration was new at that time, and James and Frances had never had to do it for any of their previous children. James died in 1845, and we have no way of knowing when he became ill, how ill he was, whether he'd been in hospital, or whatever, since the boys' births. Maybe worrying about baptisms was the last thing on Frances' mind at the time. In which case, were they baptised later in life?
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Re: James and William GILBERT

Postby SDV » Wed Dec 21, 2016 6:19 pm

Well I suppose in the St Saviours registration in 1839, the mother's maiden name is Smith and Susannah did marry a James SMYTH. Might be worth chasing?
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Re: James and William GILBERT

Postby ianbee » Thu Dec 22, 2016 1:35 pm

SDV wrote: Might be worth chasing?

Likely that the James registered March qtr 1839 was the son of James Gilbert and Mary Honor Smith (married Lambeth, 18 January 1838). James Gilbert, born 20 March 1839, bap 14 July 1839, St John the Evangelist, Lambeth. Abode Broad Wall. Same abode on baptism of sister Jane Gilbert at Christ Church Southwark in 1841. In the 1841 census at 6 Broad Wall in Southwark. Although James said he as a butcher, whereas on the other records was said to be working in the horse world.

Is that your Frances making a brief appearance in the Kent newspapers in 1843? On the trail of her eighteen year daughter who went off to Rochester.
ROCHESTER POLICE COURT. —Saturday.
Curious Story.—Mrs. Frances Gilbert, a lady residing in White-street, St. Georges-place, Borough, London, applied to the magistrates for advice under the following circumstances :—She stated that on Monday last her daughter (about eighteen of years age) left her home.....
Last edited by ianbee on Thu Dec 22, 2016 2:28 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: James and William GILBERT

Postby sdup26 » Thu Dec 22, 2016 2:20 pm

Thought I'd found something useful - baptism 1/3/1840, Christ Church, Southwark, James, son of James and Susannah Smith. Unfortunately, father James was a carpenter, and I see from the marriage that Susannah's James was an iron worker. But it's the sort of thing that's worth ruling out, before settling on no births/baptisms for the two boys. What about Eliza and Sophia?
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Re: James and William GILBERT

Postby SDV » Sat Dec 24, 2016 12:34 pm

I certainly think that the "curious story" refers to my Frances. The court appearance is interesting as Frances was deaf (according to the 1861 census), as was her daughter Mary Ann, which makes me wonder how she followed court proceedings. I think the daughter in the story must be Sarah (1825-1902), as Susannah (1819-1878) had left the parental home by 1843. Eliza (1821-1858) and Sophia (1823-1899) I think were too old, and Mary Ann (1834-1868) too young.

The births of James and William are still proving difficult. James is the most important to me as my 2x GGF, but I would have thought William would be easy, as after all we know he was born in early 1841, probably in March given that he was 9 wks at the time of the census.
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