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Is this the same person throughout?

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Is this the same person throughout?

Postby Jenaheldd » Mon Dec 05, 2016 6:02 pm

Need a sense check please as my brain is currently doing cartwheels and bouncing off walls!

I have posted a thread on this subject matter previously, but I now know more information/have more details which has of course, thrown up more questions!

So ……

My great grandmother was born 24 Feb 1869 in Islington, London and on her birth certificate is shown as Nelly Hobart with a surname of Titford. Mother is Ellen Titford and no father is listed.

1871 census: shown as Ellen T Obart and living with her grandmother Elizabeth Titford, 2 aunts and 1 uncle. No sign of her mother Eleanor
1881 census: shown as Nelly Titford and living with her grandmother Elizabeth and brother Henry (b.1857). Mother Eleanor died in 1879
1891 census: shown as Ellen Hays, living with ‘husband’ Thomas Henry Hays and their daughter Elizabeth Maud Hays, born Feb 1888, Islington.
- Can’t find a marriage record for Nellie/Ellen marrying Thomas Henry Hays
- Elizabeth Maud’s birth certificate shows her mother as Ellen Hays formally Obart

Sometime between April 1891 (the census date) and March 1892, Nellie/Ellen apparently met and married my great grandfather John Lucas (b. 7 Sept 1868, Islington)......!!

March 1892: Margaret Jessie Lucas is born. On her birth certificate is shows her mothers maiden name as Obart. I’m waiting for the actual cert to arrive to see if it calls her Ellen or Nellie.
January 1896: Winifred Rose Lucas is born. On her birth certificate, mother name is Ellen Lucas formally Titford.
December 1898 Louisa Ann Lucas is born. On her birth certificate, mother is shown as Ellen Lucas formally Titford.

Hopefully, you're still with me…….

1901 census: She’s shown as Ellen Lucas and living with John and 2 of her daughters, Lizzie (Jessie I guess) and Rose – no idea where Louisa is.
1905: Ellen is shown going to the workhouse with her 3 daughters, Jessie, Rose and Louisa.
1911 census: she’s shown as Ellen Lucas but John is shown as George! Says they had 5 children, but 1 died.
1939 register: Its Nellie and John Lucas
1941: her death certificate shows Nellie Lucas, widow of John Lucas (address is the same as 1939 register and on Johns death certificate from a few months earlier). The informant is listed as E Ayres, daughter (Ayres is Elizabeth Maud’s married name)

Now, Ellen/Nellie’s granddaughter knew her as Ellen and had never heard of the name Nellie, but from my previous thread, I believe the names are interchangeable, so I’m not too worried about this.

I can’t find a marriage between Nellie/Ellen and John Lucas. Family history says they got married when Ellen/Nellie was 16, but I don’t think this is true. In fact, I don’t think they actually got married at all. Yesterday, I found John Lucas’ army discharge papers from 1919 and he’s shown as single but lists his next of kin as ‘friend Ellen Titford’! Apparently, lying on census is ok, but not on your army records! :D

Side note, apparently, there was also a boy child of Ellen and John but he died in infancy - I can’t find a record of this.

I’m not concerned with the 3 Lucas girls (Jessie, Rose and Louisa) but Elizabeth Maud is a bit of a dark horse. The one family member who is thankfully still with us and old enough to remember the family, has no recollection of having an Auntie Elizabeth, but she does remember an Auntie Nellie. So I guess it’s possible that Elizabeth Maud used the name Nellie (but she then shows up as Ellen on her own death certificate!)

When Elizabeth Maud Hays got married, she’s registered under Elizabeth Maud Titford AND Lucas, but not Hays! Ellen and John Lucas are witnesses to her marriage and the name of the father is left blank. I'm waiting for the actual certificate to arrive to see if there's any other useful info.

So, the big question we think the Nellie Ellen Hobart Titford Hays Lucas in all the records above, is one and the same person? I am leaning to a yes, as on all records, the birth year is pretty consistent for Nellie/Ellen as is her occupation – fancy box maker or box maker, but I could have been looking at this too much, hence why I’d appreciate any input from anyone else!
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Re: Is this the same person throughout?

Postby AdrianB38 » Mon Dec 05, 2016 7:27 pm

Well, put it like this, I didn't see anything in there that seemed like an anomaly. A lot of covering up of informal relationships, but that's all.

By the way, you're right about where people lie. Censuses - anything goes. Baptisms - depends whether the priest knows them. Birth registrations - usually pretty much correct - a little uprating of occupations, but seldom false names. Marriages prone to invented fathers - after all, unlike parents of a baby being registered, fathers can be alleged long gone.

Army records? Hm. Ages were known to be adjusted but relatives? Would there be any point in lying? Especially if you could be sacked?

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