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Turner, Belfast

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Re: Turner, Belfast

Postby Narnster » Fri Nov 11, 2016 5:47 pm

As a follow on from the above... I haven't yet found the family on the 1901 census so assume they've moved with the military posting. Did the 1901 census record the military outside the UK like the 1911 one did?
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Re: Turner, Belfast

Postby AdrianB38 » Fri Nov 11, 2016 6:32 pm

So far as I can find on a quick look, the 1911 was the first to include the military outside the UK. FMP have what they refer to as Worldwide Indexes for the British Army in the same years as earlier censuses, but not 1901. These Worldwide Indexes tend to be driven by Muster Books and I can't remember if Muster Books are still used in 1901.

Incidentally, the 102nd & 103rd would be long gone by the birth of his children so would have nothing to do with any triple registration or triple indexing of his children.

Anyone dying in 1916 described as a soldier ought to be a serving soldier. Otherwise they should be described by their current civilian occupation or as a retired soldier. However, little attempt at proof was ever made, so in practice, anything could be recorded.

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Re: Turner, Belfast

Postby AdrianB38 » Fri Nov 11, 2016 8:41 pm

In Ancestry's Medal Index Cards, there are 2 Richard / R Turners in the Royal Dublin Fusiliers. One (Richard) is a 2nd Lt / Captain. The other, Private R Turner is 17195 and is Disc (I think), i.e. Discharged, 12/11/1915, having served in the Balkans and (later) been issued with the 1914-15 Star. I can't find the BWM and VM entries on Ancestry for him, but that is not unknown.

If that is him, then that would explain why there is no CWGC entry for him - he'd left the Army. On the other hand, there is nothing to confirm whether R Turner is named Richard Turner, never mind whether he's your Richard!
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Re: Turner, Belfast

Postby ianbee » Fri Nov 11, 2016 8:53 pm

Adrian, I had a look at R Turner, 17195, disch 12/11/15. But he seems to be John Turner, with a record in WO363.

On Nellie, I don't know for sure what is online from GRONI (reason being I have never used the site). Are there indexes available online for the north for deaths less than 50 years ago?
Alternatively, could someone have registered her death as Ellen, or could she have left Northern Ireland?
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Re: Turner, Belfast

Postby AdrianB38 » Fri Nov 11, 2016 9:09 pm

Ah - thanks, Ian. If R Turner were actually John, that would explain why I can't find his BWM and VM Card under R!

Yes, don't blame Ancestry for the War Office's failings.... I was beginning to think it highly unlikely that was him anyway because http://armyservicenumbers.blogspot.co.uk/2009/06/royal-dublin-fusiliers-1st-2nd.html implies 17195 would be a number issued after the start of WW1.

Still, I suspect that something similar is the best explanation - discharged before he died (so no CWGC entry), no service outside the UK in WW1 (so no Medal Index), papers lost in the Arnside St fire in WW2. All supposition on my part.....

I checked by the way, Muster Rolls were finished by 1901. And his 1911 census omits the soldiers' numbers....
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Re: Turner, Belfast

Postby Narnster » Sat Nov 12, 2016 12:38 am

Thank you so much to everyone for helping me with all this. It's really very much appreciated. It looks like I'm going to struggle to find any military documents for Richard. I know for sure it isn't the 2nd Lt/Capt RT because I've seen his file at the NA and he's alive after 1916. The 1916 death record fits because his daughter Mary Elizabeth is the informant. It seems like he travelled extensively between 1893 and 1911 and I've just found another birth record for Nellie on irishgenealogy that states father Richard as being in South Africa. Nellie's birth records are a puzzle to me... the record I just mentioned states that she was born on 29th October 1900 in Curragh Camp but it's in the middle of the May records. I think she was born in 1899 and must have been registered late, and...there are records that state 1899 and she's listed under the three regiments that I mentioned earlier. Two have the same vol/page but one is different. Hopefully that is attached.

Nellie Turner.PNG
Nellie Turner
Nellie Turner.PNG (41.58 KiB) Viewed 1416 times


Thanks again!
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Re: Turner, Belfast

Postby AdrianB38 » Sat Nov 12, 2016 1:09 pm

Re Nellie's puzzle....

You are correct with your thought that she was born in 1899. If you look at the search results page on irishgenealogy.ie, it looks like this:
Name NELLIE TURNER
Date of Birth 29 October 1900
Group Registration ID 135780
SR District/Reg Area Naas
Sex Female
Mother's Birth Surname LITTLE
Image(s) 1 2 3


Notice that there are 3 images. I think Nellie's line on the .PDF from image 1 says "Registered on Statutory Declaration..." at the right. (By the way - it says he's in South Africa in the 2nd Battalion of the (Royal) Dublin Fusiliers.) Image 2 is for another child. Image 3 is for Nellie and is a copy of the original local birth registration. That confirms the birth is at the Curragh in 1899. So it's a late entry into the GRO(I) book as seen in image 1, where they've probably done the usual trick of first filling the entire page with 1900 without thinking.

As for the 3 Nellie lines that you clipped in the response above, they are from the GRO (England & Wales) and are from the Army's record of her birth, not the Irish civil authority's. Was she registered twice, once with the Army and one with the Irish Registrar? - no idea but I doubt it - one probably passed a copy to the other. As you point out, two lines are for v1634, p17. I think this entry has been registered once but indexed twice - under the proper name and under the old number. Bureaucracys did that - the old numbers weren't supposed to be used - but they're nice, quick abbreviations! But what I can't quite figure out is the v803, p44 entry (against the 103rd designation).

It is clear on that page that there are a lot of entries indexed twice or thrice. Mildred J Turner has 3 entries - her v1631 indexes are for R Inn F and 27th. That figures as the 27th Regiment of Foot became the Royal Inniskilling Fusiliers. Hence her entry has been indexed twice - under the regiment's proper name and under its old number. But she also has a v798, p2 entry (under the 27th).

I suspect that v798 and v803 are one set of books at the GRO while v1631 and v1634 are another series of books. Whenever I try to understand military registration, I understand the page I'm reading but lose it as soon as I turn the page. But I think that Army registration was a bit of a muddle for a long time and the GRO could actually get two copies of the same event via different channels. I think that's what happened here.

To summarise - Nellie was born once(!), two different bodies recorded her birth (Army and Irish civil) - one possibly working from a copy of the other's, the Irish Civil authority messed up sending their copy to GRO(Ireland) and sent it in late (hence the oddity in years), the Army probably sent the record via 2 different routes to GRO(E&W), one of those copies was indexed twice.

No, I'm not counting it up!!! ;)

Wow - to a process geek like me, that's all actually quite interesting!
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Re: Turner, Belfast

Postby ianbee » Sun Nov 13, 2016 10:33 pm

AdrianB38 wrote:http://armyservicenumbers.blogspot.co.uk/2009/06/royal-dublin-fusiliers-1st-2nd.html implies 17195 would be a number issued after the start of WW1.

Richard was in the army when he married in June 1893, so presuming it was in the RDF, he would have to have a number less than, say, 4700 (probably quite a bit less)
I'm a bit confused about whether he's later supposed to be in the 1st or 2nd Battalion, but anyway a possible sighting via ancestry?
UK, Military Campaign Medal and Award Rolls, 1793-1949
South Africa 1899-1902
1st Battalion, Royal Dublin Fusiliers
R. Turner
Rank - Private
Reg. No. 4000
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Re: Turner, Belfast

Postby ianbee » Sun Nov 13, 2016 10:41 pm

There is an army service record on findmypast for Richard Turner, reg. no. 4000, in WO97!
Born Carlisle
Blacksmith
attested Royal Dublin Fusiliers at Naas, February 1891
Discharged Gosport 19.2.12

Good few pages as well.
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Re: Turner, Belfast

Postby AdrianB38 » Sun Nov 13, 2016 11:38 pm

Nicely done Ian.

There is a slight contradiction between the Army records and the certificates for Nellie - they claim he's in the 2nd Battalion, when his Army papers show that he was in the 1st throughout. But it's hardly a major issue when everything else matches so well.

Little bit of learning experience for FMP users here... Head-banging on my part after reading Ian's post - why couldn't I find his papers? Well, I had entered:
Regiment = Royal Dublin *

You have to have the terminal wild-card on FMP, otherwise it just looks for a regiment named exactly "Royal Dublin". Why not enter "Royal Dublin Fusiliers"? Because "Fusiliers" might be written as "Fus" on the original, so "Royal Dublin *" should pick up anything.

But in RT's case, his regiment was written (and obviously indexed as) "1st Royal Dublin Fusiliers", which is not matching "Royal Dublin *" because of the extra bit at the beginning. Indeed, I can't actually work out what would pick up "1st Royal Dublin Fusiliers"...

The trick on FMP is to follow Paul Nixon's advice from ages ago and enter "Royal Dublin" in the Optional Keywords. That finds him....
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