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Emma Bacon/Smith/Walsh

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Emma Bacon/Smith/Walsh

Postby Woolhe » Mon Nov 07, 2016 10:12 am

Emma is my great great grandmother and she was born Emma Bacon on 11 November 1857, Nayland, Essex illegitimate daughter of Esther Bacon.

Esther Bacon married John Smith (Gardener) on 7 July 1860 at Parish Church, Nayland.

Emma is listed in the 1861 census with John (aged 26 - Gardener) and Esther (aged 23 - Tailoress) at Birch Street, Stoke by Nayland and is listed as Emma Bacon.

By 1871 census she is listed as Emma Smith and is living with John and Esther at Bridge Street, Bures.

Emma gave birth to Arthur John on 12 February 1877 at Bures St Mary and both are listed by the surname Smith on his birth certificate. No father listed.

Whilst Arthur John remains living with and was brought up by grandparents, Emma apparently disappears or so I thought.

After much searching I found Emma Smith (aged 23 - Dressmaker) listed as a boarder in 1881 census at 64 Southville, Lambeth, although her place of birth is given as Colchester, Essex. Also listed as a boarder at the same address is Charles Walsh (aged 29 - Canvesser for insurance) who was born Bures.

I cannot find a marriage registration between Emma and Charles Walsh.

In the 1891 (mistranscribed as Walch) and 1901 censuses Emma Walsh (born Nayland) and Charles Walsh (Cabman) and their children are living Upper Kennington Lane, Lambeth and St Marks Road, Lambeth respectively.

Charles and Emma had the following children:

Annie Maggie was baptised 19 April 1882 Saint Peter Church, Dulwich, registered March quarter 1882, Lambeth 1d, 455
Charles R Walsh baptised 21 November 1886 Saint Peter Church, Dulwich, registered September quarter 1884 Lambeth 1d, 383
Elsie G Walsh baptised 21 November 1886 Saint Peter Church, Dulwich, registered December quarter 1886 Lambeth 1d, 997

Baptismal records state parents of Charles R and Elsie G are Charles and Elsie Grace, address 10 Glynn Street, but this must be a mistake by the clerk's when completing the register.

I obtained Elsie G's birth certificate. Elsie Grace Walsh born 24 September 1886 10 Glynn Street, father Charles Walsh (Cabman), mother Emma Walsh formerly Smith.

Further children baptised at Kennington St John the Divine to Charles - Cabman and Emma Walsh are:

William Walsh baptised 2 November 1892 address 64 St Marks Road, registered December quarter 1892, Lambeth 1d, 466
Florence Emma was baptised 2 November 1892 but the parents name is just given as Walsh as she is listed directly below William
Jessie Violet baptised 21 April 1897 address 83 St Marks Road
Emma Elizabeth baptised 6 November 1899 address 83 St Marks Road

I cannot currently find any birth registrations for Florence Emma (who was born in 1891 according to census record), Jessie Violet or Emma Elizabeth. Any help in finding their registrations would be great

Also after 1901 I cannot find record of Emma or the later children. I can find Charles Walsh (aged 59 - Cabman) living as a boarder at 231 Beresford Street, Walworth, however he lists himself as single with no children.

I believe Charles Walsh died March quarter 1925, Lambeth, 1d, 375 (aged 73)

I have found various records for Charles Robert Walsh including workhouse records which show Charles Robert Walsh (aged 26 - Bus conductor) from Newington Parish, admitted 2 May 1908 was discharged 12 May 1908. Father Charles Walsh 231 Beresford Street, Walworth. 1 Bro and 4 Sisters Addresses unknown. I therefore know that the 1911 records for Charles Walsh senior is the correct person. Has one of his sister's died? If so, which one?

If Charles Robert's mother was alive would she have also been listed on the workhouse discharge? Did Emma and Charles marry, where is the record? If she has died, where is her death record and is she recorded under the name of Walsh or Smith, or maybe even Bacon! If she didn't die, where is she in the 1911 census?

Please any help would be gratefully received.
Woolhe
 
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Re: Emma Bacon/Smith/Walsh

Postby sdup26 » Mon Nov 07, 2016 12:00 pm

Have you ruled out this marriage registration?
Charles Walsh - Emma Ada Smith, SQ 1887, Lambeth 1d 812
sdup26
 
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Re: Emma Bacon/Smith/Walsh

Postby ianbee » Mon Nov 07, 2016 12:18 pm

Possible birth reg?
Sep 1890 St Geo. H. Sq. 1a 443
Walsh, Florence Emma
mother's maiden surname Smith
ianbee
 
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Re: Emma Bacon/Smith/Walsh

Postby Woolhe » Mon Nov 07, 2016 2:56 pm

Hi Ian

Thank you for your reply. No I haven't ruled out that marriage in 1887, my reservation was that nowhere in my research does Emma have a middle name. I may purchase the marriage certificate anyway just to confirm one way or the other.

Thank you for Florence Emma registration. Why would the birth have been registered there I wonder. All the others I have found have been in Lambeth.
Woolhe
 
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Re: Emma Bacon/Smith/Walsh

Postby ianbee » Mon Nov 07, 2016 4:52 pm

Hi
sdup26 has the credit for finding the marriage possibility.
The other two names on the page are Isaac Stokes and Annie Bryan, and they seem to pair off in the census, which is confirmed by the new GRO birth index (their two children's birth registrations show Bryan as the mother's maiden name).
So it's an interesting one. You could perhaps have a look see if there is another couple called Walsh or similar with those first names around in the greater London area later.

In 1891 Florence was 10 months old, born Westminster, so that birth reg looks a good fit. It's only just over the river from Lambeth, either they moved there for a short while or perhaps Emma gave birth in a hospital there.
But no sign so far of those last two daughters, I am wondering if perhaps they had adopted them.
Emma has certainly done a pretty good disappearing act!
Ian
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Re: Emma Bacon/Smith/Walsh

Postby Woolhe » Tue Nov 08, 2016 2:19 pm

I really MUST read people's messages properly! Sorry sdup26, thank you for pointing out the marriage. I have taken the plunge to rule the marriage in or out by ordering the certificate.

Ian - I had not given thought to the possibility that the two later girls may have been adopted. I suppose if they were adopted then if Charles and Emma had them baptised then that would make them "theirs" pre the need to register adoptions. I think I will dig into Charles' siblings to see if there is a possibility the children came from that direction as Emma had no siblings.

My concern is that I cannot find any of the later children, William, Florence Emma, Jessie Violet or Emma Elizabeth in the 1911 census, nor Annie Maggie for that matter but she may have married and finding her marriage in London is proving problematic. The later children seem to be doing the same disappearing act as my great great grandmother Emma!! Possible death for Florence E born 1890 died December quarter 1930, registered Battersea,1d, 426 just found

If Emma did die where would I find her burial? Would it be under the name of the church (St Marks, Lambeth as that was where they were living in the 1900s) or under the name of the cemetery? If the cemetery where would I find the information of which cemetery served that area?

Thank you in advance to anyone for any advice or suggestions.
Woolhe
 
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Joined: Fri Jul 03, 2015 10:03 am

Re: Emma Bacon/Smith/Walsh

Postby ianbee » Tue Nov 08, 2016 4:53 pm

Hi
I don't think the Florence E Walsh who died 1930 is yours, though her middle name was Emma. Probably was the wife of Charles John Walsh, they were at 40 Colmer Road (she is not listed 1931)

We have a possible Charles Robert Walsh in the 1911 census, and a marriage very shortly afterwards to Gertrude A Knight. Later living 57 Railway Road, Teddington. Charles Robert Walsh died 1938, age 53, and is buried Teddington Cemetery along with his daughter, Jessie Eva Sutherland Walsh (died age 18)

Whenever Emma died she will most likely have been buried in a cemetery. I suppose she could have died before 1911.
Ian
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Re: Emma Bacon/Smith/Walsh

Postby Woolhe » Wed Nov 09, 2016 3:24 pm

Hi Ian

Thanks for information regarding Florence E Walsh death in 1930. It was only a possibility that needed further investigation.

Yes I had found Charles Robert Walsh in 1911 census as well as workhouse records mentioned earlier (dated 1908). I have also found his war records, which confirm his marriage date to Gertrude Alice Knight (27 April 1911) and children's names of Jessie Eva S (born 24 October 1911, Wandsworth - died December quarter 1929, registered Kingston), Florence Rose (born 3 December 1912, Brentwood) and Elsie Phyllis (born 28 September 1914, Kingston). I also found two more possible children those being Elizabeth born June quarter 1919, registered Wandsworth and Dorothy D born December quarter 1922, registered Kingston. His war records also show that he had an illegitimate child born to Edith Clifton of 23 Ferry Road, Twickenham on 16 December 1916.

Which records did you use to trace Charles Robert and his daughter Jessie's burial?

Because my library is having technical difficulties with Findmypast at the moment I am unable to access the 1939 Register to ascertain who is living with Gertrude A Walsh (born 1883) living Hendon district in 1939.

Elsie Grace (aged 24) is listed as a barmaid in 1911 census at 260 Great Portland Street. I am almost certain that she married John George Herring in September quarter 1915, registered Pancras. They had a child Harold A born March quarter 1917, died March quarter 1918, registered Pancras. I have found Elsie G (born 1886) and John G Herring (b1869) in the 1939 register, but again because of the technical difficulties I am unable to confirm her birth date. John George Herring of 96 Burghley Road, Kentish Town died 28 December 1939, probate found listing his widow as Elsie Grace. Elsie G Herring died 1966, registered Surrey NW (aged 79).

I found who I think is Annie Maggie (aged 19 - General domestic servant) at 1 New Street, Stoke Newington in the 1901 census. Nothing after that.

Will update post when marriage certificate between Charles Walsh and Emma Ada Smith arrives.
Woolhe
 
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Joined: Fri Jul 03, 2015 10:03 am

Re: Emma Bacon/Smith/Walsh

Postby ianbee » Thu Nov 10, 2016 2:01 pm

Hi
For Richmond burials, see search burials register
http://www.richmond.gov.uk/cemeteries

1939
57 Railway Rd, Twickenham M.B.
Walsh Gertrude A, born 29 Dec 84, Widowed, Unpaid Domestic Duties
Walsh Florence R, 3 Dec 12, Single, Paper Mache Finisher
Walsh Dorothy D (later Saunders??), 28 Aug 22, Single, Shop Asst (Ladies U/C)

At 96 Burghley Rd, St Pancras
Herring John J, born 12.10.68, Married, Valuers Clerk
Herring Elsie G, born 24.9.86, Married, Unpaid dom. duties
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Re: Emma Bacon/Smith/Walsh

Postby Woolhe » Tue Nov 15, 2016 10:42 am

So many thanks Ian!

I am so glad that that was Elsie Grace in the 1939 Register, it's another relation ticked off my list.

Thank you also for Gertrude Alice Walsh and her two girls, she obviously stuck by her man despite his indiscretion in 1917. Thanks to the 1939 register I've found that Dorothy Doreen married John J Saunders in 1940, registered Staines, Middlesex. She had a son in 1941 but she died in 1943, registered Staines (aged 20) and thanks to your link to Teddington cemetery she too was buried there on 20 August 1943 (aged 20).

The marriage certificate has arrived and it confirms that it is my great grandmother. Can anyone explain why there is the number 15 between the name of Ada and Smith? The certificate confirms that she would have been known by the surname Walsh after 1901 as were the later children. So what happened to them?

I wonder if Charles and Emma separated and she went to live with someone else and appears under a different name? Although I have followed up this train of thought I cannot find anyone who would match?

Did she die?

Why can I not find reference to the later children after 1901? I've had a look at Charles' siblings and do not think Jessie Violet and Emma Elizabeth are coming from that direction.

Any help with any of my above questions would be gratefully received.
Woolhe
 
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Joined: Fri Jul 03, 2015 10:03 am

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