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Brockley Terrace, Walworth 1891 ?

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Brockley Terrace, Walworth 1891 ?

Postby jimbo50 » Wed Oct 19, 2016 3:45 pm

Hello. I am having a struggle, as you do, with 'Jones' ancestors.
I have my Gt Grandparent's marriage cert; 16th Nov 1890, at All Saints Newington, when John James Jones marries Mary Ann Wallace, both 18 and both resident at 8 Brockley Terrace, Walworth. His father is John George Jones deceased, a labourer. Her father is John Wallace a Labourer.
I think my only hope is to find that his mother's with them in 1891 census, which I have failed to find at all by their names. Can anyone help with the 1891 census for 8 Brockley Terrace ? I'm hoping they're still there. Thank you for reading.
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Re: Brockley Terrace, Walworth 1891 ?

Postby ianbee » Wed Oct 19, 2016 4:47 pm

Hi
No luck, I'm afraid.
1891 census
piece 358 folio 117 page 77
Newington, Surrey
8 Brockley Terr
William Summersfield Head 39 Tin Plate Worker, born Wolverhampton
Elizabeth Summersfield Wife 30 London Chelsea
next page -
William Summersfield Son 3m London Walworth

Possibly William Summerfield, 38, (Tin plate worker) + Elizabeth Emma Hoy, 29, married 9 August 1890, St Andrew, Barnsbury.

1890 + 1891 + 1892 electoral register, Walworth -
George Fogden is listed at 8 Brockley Terrace!
Ian
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Re: Brockley Terrace, Walworth 1891 ?

Postby jimbo50 » Wed Oct 19, 2016 4:57 pm

Thank you Ian. Would they be old enough to be on the voting register though ? Is it possible they were there in 1890 only barred by age, do you think ?
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Re: Brockley Terrace, Walworth 1891 ?

Postby ianbee » Wed Oct 19, 2016 5:11 pm

He wouldn't be old enough in 1890, no. He might appear when 21, but not necessarily back then!
George Fogden is listed as living at number 8, but wasn't there in the 1891 census. He is there later, in 1901 and 1911! I don't know if he has any connection to either John or Mary.
Have you got them in 1901?
Ian
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Re: Brockley Terrace, Walworth 1891 ?

Postby jimbo50 » Wed Oct 19, 2016 5:25 pm

Yes 1901 I have Mary Anne Jones at home (no link to anyone there). John James is in hospital. He didn't come out. My Nan's Dad died when she was 1 year old. Just off to a meeting, back soon.
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Re: Brockley Terrace, Walworth 1891 ?

Postby ianbee » Wed Oct 19, 2016 6:12 pm

Hi
So Mary and the children are in Deptford in 1901. John James is in the Greenwich Union Infirmary.
1891 possibility
piece 497 folio 60 page 43
St Paul Deptford
11 Blackhorse Rd
Mary A Longton Head Wid 60, born London Boro
Annie Howard Daur M(arried) 23 Deptford
Michael Howard Son in law M 27 Dock Labourer Deptford
John Jones Grandson M 20 Dock Labourer (dittoed from Michael), Deptford
Mary A Jones Grand dau M 18 Deptford
James Wallis Grandson 15 Wood Chopper Deptford
Ellen Wallis Grand dau 11 Deptford

Looks complicated!
John James was given as an Engine Driver in the infirmary in 1901.
Ian
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Re: Brockley Terrace, Walworth 1891 ?

Postby jimbo50 » Wed Oct 19, 2016 7:50 pm

Well Done Again Ianbee !
John James was a stationary-engine driver. Now I'm embarassed because I can't remember where I've seen that written.
Occupants 11 Blackhorse Road,from the top, as related to Mary Anne Wallace/Jones are ; Grandmother, Aunt, Uncle by marriage, Her Husband, Herself, Brother or nephew, Sister or niece. That's brilliant, and at the same time disappointing, because I don't have any leads left for John James Jones parents.
But why didn't they come up in my searches on FamilySearch ?
Somewhere in the Wallace/Longton family is supposed to be a Kerry connection, according to my Nan...and also heard totally separately from her sister by a cousin once removed.
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Re: Brockley Terrace, Walworth 1891 ?

Postby ianbee » Wed Oct 19, 2016 8:24 pm

Hi
Yes it seems to help with Mary, but leaves us none the wiser about John.
The best I can come up with for him in 1881 - if he was indeed from Deptford - is a John Jones, age 9, born Deptford, a scholar, and living at 58 Giffin Street, Deptford.
Parents are George Jones, 57, Pensioner, and Mary A Jones, 47. Siblings Jemma(?), George, and Charlotte.
There isn't a John James Jones registered in Greenwich around that time. There is -
June 1872 Greenwich 1d 771
Jones, John Jones
It does say Jones as the middle name on the original. Whether it's an error in the index, or even whether it's your chap or not, I don't know. Actually there are quite a number of birth registrations of John Jones Jones! Obviously mainly in Wales (perhaps the mother, or a grandmother, or even an unnamed father was also Jones!)

On the infirmary - John did come out. Must have gone back in later if you know that he died there.
Greenwich Union Infirmary, Creed Register
1901
Jones John
age 30
admitted 28 March
parish admitted from - S Paul
relieving officer - Payn
religious creed - C E
nearest known relative - Wife Mary A. 182 Church St
ward G4
discharged 11.4.01 (A+D says own request)

They may have been keeping two creed registers, one alphabetical by first letter of surname, and one by date of admission (is less detailed). There might be a gap in the coverage of the alphabetical creed around about 1901. Or there might not! I'll investigate further.
Ian
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Re: Brockley Terrace, Walworth 1891 ?

Postby jimbo50 » Thu Oct 20, 2016 1:47 pm

Hello again. Thank you very much, Ianbee. I'm sorry to admit that I don't really know that he died there, only had assumed that because he was already in an infirmary. We were told he died from infection caused by a dirty needle when Nan was 1 or 2 years old.
I tried to make the 'Griffin Street' John Jones match, it does match the birth you found, Ianbee, but not our later records, it's only about 2 years out though. There was also the fact that John James first son is named George.
My search on FamilySearch still failed to show them, again, it's as though the search engine knows who you are looking for and hides them, although I was struggling to keep going late at night.
Having another good look at records we have, I'm all for assuming mariage cert was mistranscribed as 18 yrs old instead of 19 yrs old, mainly because that seems the easiest number to get wrong. The 1891 census and hospital admission records do match his exact age then. Which (by use of excel spreadsheet) puts his birthday at between 17th Nov 1870 and 4th April 1871. Most of those days are contained in March 1871 Qtr.
Do you think that's a good starting point ? I don't know if I'm just being foolish to trust any age records at all.
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Re: Brockley Terrace, Walworth 1891 ?

Postby woodchal » Thu Oct 20, 2016 2:20 pm

Who were the witnesses on the marriage certificate- could they be useful?


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