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Brockley Terrace, Walworth 1891 ?

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Re: Brockley Terrace, Walworth 1891 ?

Postby jimbo50 » Thu Oct 20, 2016 2:46 pm

They were Dennis Joseph Finnigan and Florence Elizabeth Gray. Looks like just friends acting as Best Man and Bridesmaid to me. This is a 2005 copy, does anyone know what they're copied from ?.
STOP PRESS ;Just found a possible marriage Mary Finnigan to John Jones in West Derby Sep 1849 Vol 20 Page 983. Although there are four possible husbands on that page. Can anyone tell which is the right one ?
Just found a Dennis Finnigan in Electoral Register 1891 at 48 Giffin Street Deptford. Number 58, where the Jones's lived in 1881 seems to be missing from the register. Also Dennis was living at No.48 in 1881 census with his parents and sister. So they lived five doors away from each other, both aged 9 yrs. Is that too close to be a coincidence, should I go for the birth certificate ? Can't see any census entries again. Help !
Last edited by jimbo50 on Thu Oct 20, 2016 5:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Brockley Terrace, Walworth 1891 ?

Postby ianbee » Thu Oct 20, 2016 5:36 pm

Hi
With that Jones family in 1881, I was only really going on him saying his father was John George on the marriage certificate. He might have got the name slightly wrong perhaps.
We should look into that John Jones Jones birth a bit more if we can, certainly it could match the 81 entry, and indeed John's age on the marriage. It's hard to know which age is right, there is only a small difference of a year or so with the other, later records.

Dennis Finigan - That's a pretty sensational find.
In 1881 there is a Denis Finegan, 9, at 56 Giffin (or Giffen) Street, Deptford!
Father John Finegan, a Shoemaker, born Ireland.
So that one would be around the same age as your John, but not 21 in 1891, to be on the electoral register. It's certainly looking interesting though!

1891 census entry on Family Search
Name: John Jones
County: London
Parish: St Paul Deptford
Ecclesiastical Parish: St Luke
Registration District: Greenwich
Residence Note: Blackhorse Road
Gender: Male
Age: 20
Marital Status: Married
Occupation: Dock Labourer
Relationship to Head of Household: Grandson
Birth Year (Estimated): 1871
Birthplace: England
Piece/Folio/Page 497 / 60 / 43
other: Mary A Longton, Annie Howard, Michael Howard, Mary A Jones, James Wallis, Ellen Wallis
Ian
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Re: Brockley Terrace, Walworth 1891 ?

Postby jimbo50 » Thu Oct 20, 2016 5:45 pm

Sorry Ian, we've cross posted. I was just editing my above reply re Dennis Finnigan. I had come to the conclusion that is too close to be a coincidence. Another thing to check, can you see a death for George Jones (as he is deceased on the certificate) ? I think I've found Mary A Jones 1891 in Gillingham Kent, a widow, could the daughter's name have been a mistranscribed 'Emma' In 1881 ?
Just looked up voting rights;
A further reform put forward by Gladstone in 1884 introduced uniform qualifications for counties and boroughs and gave the vote to all male inhabitant householders, to occupiers of lands and tenements worth at least £10 and to lodgers paying at least £10 a year.
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Re: Brockley Terrace, Walworth 1891 ?

Postby ianbee » Thu Oct 20, 2016 6:38 pm

Well in Greenwich between 1881 and 1890 there are at least a couple of possible deaths for George Jones. In Dec qtr 1886, and June qtr 1886. On both occasions the age is 63.
By the way, there is a burial of John James Jones in Lewisham, 29 March 1902. Must be yours I should think, but deceased online have recently removed the names of the cemeteries from the free index. I believe it will be at either Ladywell or Brockley cemeteries.

With Dennis Finnigan, born circa 1872, I guess we have to say that people moved around a lot in those days, and those houses in Giffin Street were certainly multi occupied. But it's very interesting. So yes, possibly then the marriage witness was a friend of John Jones. Dennis may have married Margaret Day at St Paul Deptford in 1900. They are in Deptford in 1911 (probably 1901, but I haven't yet found them!).
I'm afraid those 1849 West Derby names don't match up on Lancashire BMD.

In the Deptford parish register it does say that John was 18 when he married, same age as Mary Ann. It does not say that her father, John Wallace, was deceased. Though I have yet to see him! Can't find the family as Wallace or Wallis in 1881. He married Mary Ann Longton in September 1872 and was said to be 23 years old, and a painter.
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Re: Brockley Terrace, Walworth 1891 ?

Postby jimbo50 » Thu Oct 20, 2016 9:48 pm

Thanks so much Ianbee, you've been so helpful and an inspiration. It looks like I've got some certificates to request. I was so surprised to see John James Jones lived for another year.
Dennis and John, both 9 years old, living so close in 1881 clinches it for me. He must be the same Dennis still living there in 1891.
Thank you also Woodchal, you set me off on the witnesses, which I had ignored.
Ianbee, I have Longton/Wallace marriage certificate 1872, both fathers deceased.
I have Longtons in St Saviours, 1, Ladds Court in 1861 where James Longton is a carman, and Greenfield St Deptford in 1871, where Mary Anne Longton (Mary Anne's Mother) is now a widow.
That adds up to at least five Mary Anne's in a row !
Thank you again, I am so pleased to have found all this.
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Re: Brockley Terrace, Walworth 1891 ?

Postby ianbee » Fri Oct 21, 2016 1:48 pm

Hi
I am wondering if there are still problems!
Dennis Finnigan, age 25, married Margaret Day, 26 Feb 1900, at St Paul Deptford.
Father John Finnigan (deceased), Shoemaker. So this Dennis fits the 9 year old boy living at 56 Giffin Street in 1881.
Has to be said that his signature does not really resemble that of your marriage witness, Dennis Joseph Finnigan. Though that Jones marriage was ten years earlier, when the Giffin Street Dennis would only be about 18.
There seems to be a workhouse admission for him in Greenwich, 4 January 1892. Age 20, a Lab(ourer). Religion RC (but he married in C of E in 1900!). Address given is address 47 Giffin St, but apparently Destitute at that time. More admissions much later.

School admission records, Frankham Street School, for the two Jones girls (not the boys, perhaps the records have not survived)
Emma Jones, born 2.8.66, father George Jones, admitted 26.6.76, address 58 Giffin Street
Charlotte Jones, born 5.9.75, father George Jones, admitted 3.5.82, address 58 Giffin St

So we can say they were at that address for quite a time.
No birth reg in Greenwich for Emma in Sep or even the Dec qtr 1866
No birth reg in Greenwich for Charlotte in 1875
So the problem there is, how can we be sure their brother John has a birth certificate?
And we haven't pinned down a marriage for the parents.

The father George Jones, from the census was born Woolwich around 1824. Given as a Chelsea Pensioner in 1871, and Pensioner in 1881.
Might be an army service record in WO97, age a year or two out (which may not be too much of a problem, though the Jones name is!)

George Jones
No. 1514, born Woolwich, Kent, a Brick Maker
attested 61st Foot at Uxbridge, 21 June 1841, age 19

Nature of Disability - Gunshot wound of head
In Delhi in India he was struck on the left side of the head by a musket ball.
says "seems to have produced excitement, and got him into trouble"
Indeed, the last six years of his service record appear to be a continual series of imprisonments, followed by short releases! From 3 June 1856 right up to 8 April 1862 (his discharge)

Final discharge at Chatham, 6 May 1862, age 393/4.
Intended place of residence Deptford, Kent

some writing, possibly in pencil, at the foot of the first page
"Says his Medals were Stolen"
illegible
"Deptford Kent"

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Re: Brockley Terrace, Walworth 1891 ?

Postby ianbee » Fri Oct 21, 2016 2:06 pm

Ah, it is the right certificate for the Giffin Street John!
Births registered as Easterbrook
Sep 1868 Greenwich 1d 760
Easterbrook, George John J.

June 1872 Greenwich 1d 771
Easterbrook, John Jones
also indexed as
Jones, John Jones

Dec 1875 Greenwich 1d 831
Easterbrook, Charlotte Ann J.

So those J initials in the indexes for George and Charlotte should stand for Jones
But it may mean there is no name of James on John's birth certificate, i.e. it may not have been a mistake. Although his siblings did have two christian names.

Banns of marriage called for George Jones and Mary Ann Easterbrook at St Paul Deptford in 1866
They went through it all again in 1869!
But it seems they never actually tied the knot.
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Re: Brockley Terrace, Walworth 1891 ?

Postby jimbo50 » Fri Oct 21, 2016 8:46 pm

Hi Ianbee . For a lost cause 'Jones' this is a huge amount of information. I have just been stunned by it. How on earth does all this appear ? It is so kind of you to do this. I must see about finding the army record....oops, and telling my Mum, after all, I've just realised, this was her grandfather and great grandfather. She could be upset hearing after almost ninety years not knowing. Must tread carefully. Thank You So Much. Kindest Regards. Jim
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