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Middle name query (Valentine)

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Re: Middle name query (Valentine)

Postby sdup26 » Mon Oct 17, 2016 11:00 am

That's really strange. The baptism entry from St Paul's M/C shows: "Baptism 27th May 1838, Anne Barber, child of John Barber and Mary. Born 20th Oct 2016. Abode Hoxne in the County of Suffolk. Occ: Miller." All fits beautifully for your Ann, except that her stated birth year is about ten years earlier than on the 1851 census onwards. In the 1841 census for Deansgate, Manchester, there's an Ann Barber aged 25 (1816) FS, not born in county. Why the baptism so far from home? Was it for religious reasons, or did getting employment depend on it? And which age is correct? The one on this record, or the one on all censuses after 1841?
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Re: Middle name query (Valentine)

Postby jimbo50 » Mon Oct 17, 2016 12:12 pm

Re the 1851 census Woodbridge / Hoxne. Hoxne is an enormous registration district. It could well include Woodbridge.
re 1861 census, Thamer is aged 19. Yet Manchester birth is 1820. So she also suffers from an age discrepancy.
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Re: Middle name query (Valentine)

Postby MoVidger » Mon Oct 17, 2016 2:55 pm

Thank you to Ian, sdup26, and Jim for the further research. No, I hadn't seen that link regarding the Barber family. Funny how Henry or Matilda aren't mentioned in that query.

I will spend today exploring the Lancashire connection for this family. This is such a great find. Hopefully I will find out Mary Barber's maiden name, as well.

I totally agree - why is Ann shaving 10 years off her age? Having said that, I always thought the age gap between Ann and her mother (as noted in 1851) was a bit odd!

Thanks again to all for the very helpful investigative research! :D
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Re: Middle name query (Valentine)

Postby sdup26 » Mon Oct 17, 2016 5:58 pm

A Manchester baptism entry for Thamer Barber says she was born 27th March 1820, and baptised 15th April, parents John and Mary Barber. According to a tree on ancestry, she married Allan Smith in 1842 in Haslingden, and they had 9 children. (Listed as Themer Barber on marriage entry freebmd: DecQ 1842, Haslingden 21 285.) If she was visiting the Nunns in 1861, surely she wouldn't be listed on the census as Thamer Barber, but Thamer Smith? The plot thickens! Unfortunately, the tree owner seems not to know anything about her birth family.
Last edited by sdup26 on Tue Oct 18, 2016 4:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Middle name query (Valentine)

Postby jimbo50 » Mon Oct 17, 2016 6:41 pm

Thamar Smith is also listed in 1861 with her husband and children in Tottington. Born in Eye Suffolk though.
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Re: Middle name query (Valentine)

Postby MoVidger » Mon Oct 17, 2016 6:49 pm

I just saw that Ancestry tree, as well. It's very interesting. I'm unable to locate Thamer in the 1841 census. The link that Ian provided mentions Thamer was a servant in Ramsbottom in 1841, but she's eluding me at the moment.

Just to confuse matters, there is a "Thamer Barber" (age 8) staying with an Ag Lab named Benjamin Buck in the 1851 census for Hoxne. She is listed as "relative". On the actual record, the surname could be either Barber or Barker, but Ancestry has transcribed it as "Barter".

There is a FreeBMD entry for a Thamer/Thamar Barber born in Hoxne in the Dec 1842 period. So she must be the person visiting the Bucks in 1851 and the Nunns in 1861. Could she be Ann's daughter, in addition to Matilda?

On FamilySearch, there is the 1838 baptism record image for Thamer Barber (b 1820). Directly above her name is a Harry Barber (b 1822) with parents John & Mary Barber. Father is a miller.

I wonder why these three Barber children were baptised in Lancashire in 1838? Very odd, indeed.
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Re: Middle name query (Valentine)

Postby ianbee » Mon Oct 17, 2016 7:37 pm

I think the younger Thamar Barber married James Berry in Southwark in 1875 (Thamas on ancestry). Then back to Suffolk.
There is another Barber with the Bucks in 1861.
1851 is a bit odd, yes, Thamar is enumerated as "relative", but then someone seems to have scrawled "niece" in the occupation column. With what looks to me like the same kind of penmanship - if that's the word - as the clerk's marks that are all over the page!

We've had some luck in the past in the newspapers with maintenance cases, but no sign of Ann at all.
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Re: Middle name query (Valentine)

Postby MoVidger » Mon Oct 17, 2016 8:20 pm

Thanks for the info Ian. On FamilySearch I've found an 1871 census record for the young Thamer, working as a servant in Islington. However I can't find locate the record/image on Ancestry yet.

I'll need to investigate this family a lot further, to discover the Buck-Barber connection in Hoxne.
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Re: Middle name query (Valentine)

Postby MoVidger » Tue Oct 18, 2016 4:42 am

It appears the other Barber staying with the Buck family in 1861 is a "sister" named Mary Barber, born in Woodbridge. I gather she is the sister of Susan Buck (nee Barber). Mary's age is a bit out, but is she the same Mary Barber with daughter Ann in the 1851 census? Perhaps the birthplaces were accidentally reversed for both women in the 1851 census, with mother Mary born in Woodbridge (not Hoxne).
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Re: Middle name query (Valentine)

Postby ianbee » Tue Oct 18, 2016 3:19 pm

Matilda may have married Henry Davey, 3 July 1864, at St Matthias, Bethnal Green. She has named a father, as though she was legitimate, whether there are any similarities at all with her actual father remains to be seen.
Living in Limehouse in 1871.
It then looks as though she has married again in Bethnal Green in 1881 as a widow. To John Lawrence. Guess who she names as her father!

It's also possible that Ann's mother died in 1854. There is a burial in Hoxne, 24 Dec 1854, Mary Barber, age 73 (from NBI).
I don't really think she is the Mary who was with the Bucks in 61, and who I can't see again in later census returns. So, if her age was accurate in 1861, she might be the Mary Barber who died March qtr 1871, Hoxne, age 62.
But she doesn't appear on the NBI, Hoxne parish or anywhere else.
Could that Mary Barber also be a daughter of John the miller, as mentioned in the message? Presume Gilly had some evidence of her existence, other than the 1841 census entry (which like the Ann in Manchester can't really be confirmed as being right). Although that make Susan another daughter, and she is of similar age to the first Thamar.
And if Thamar was illegitimate Mary would be another candidate to be her mother. Ann would be a candidate of course, as you said. Thamar also named a father on her marriage (11 October 1875, at St Mary, Newington)
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