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Marriage confirmation from birth certificate Scotland c 1920

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Marriage confirmation from birth certificate Scotland c 1920

Postby MaureenE » Sat Oct 08, 2016 3:06 am

This query relates to a topic on the Great War Forum which interested me. concerning confirmation of a marriage in 1919, in Russia, the father being in the British Army. The original poster felt that the marriage details had been confirmed and said

“This confirmation is from the birth registration in Scotland of their son The birth certificates in Scotland show the location and date of the parents marriage”.
http://1914-1918.invisionzone.com/forum ... nt=2446183

I feel that it is likely that the details on the birth certifate would have been provided by the parents of the child, without any documentary evidence required, so that although the details provided may well be correct, they cannot be said to have been confirmed.

I don't know exactly when the son was born, but probably 1920s

Any thoughts?

Cheers
Maureen
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Re: Marriage confirmation from birth certificate Scotland c

Postby AdrianB38 » Sat Oct 08, 2016 6:33 am

Well... Yes. Err... "Confirmed" as much as anything is. In virtually no cases does information in a registration source - or indeed anything - need independent confirmation by an independent outside party or other independent document.

As I'm sure all current readers realise, on a marriage certificate (say), name, age, parents, occupation, are all taken on trust, with no production of a birth certificate. Exactly the same here, I would say.

Nothing is ever confirmed totally in genealogy. It's all only as good as the last piece of evidence. The only thing that we can do is gather as much data as is reasonable and look for any anomalies. If there are reasons to doubt this marriage, then yes, the Scots BC doesn't provide primary evidence of it, only evidence of what the parents claimed - which isn't the same thing.

I would suggest looking at the Armed Forces marriages on FMP - but the trouble there is that I am not certain how complete that stuff is. If someone married in the local church - would the event be recorded by the Army? Probably if he wanted his bride to be taken back to the UK with them. Probably not if fraternisation with the locals was frowned upon.

If there are still unexplained anomalies in the soldier's story, then I don't think that the BC resolves the issue, precisely because it is coming from an interested party. If there are no such anomalies and good coverage, then it's as confirmed as anything is. With the proviso that no one really knows what happens in a war zone.

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Re: Marriage confirmation from birth certificate Scotland c

Postby MaureenE » Sun Oct 09, 2016 8:23 am

Thanks Adrian for your comments.

Cheers
Maureen
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Re: Marriage confirmation from birth certificate Scotland c

Postby AdrianB38 » Sun Oct 09, 2016 10:34 am

It did occur to me, re-reading the chain and the linked query, that there is a Scots element to this - and ScotlandsPeople has "Minor Records" from GRO(S) that include marriages in the Forces.

This gives rise to the thought in my mind - what is the relation between the Forces part of the Minor Records on ScotlandsPeople and the Forces part of the indexes on FMP?

SP (see https://www.scotlandspeople.gov.uk/guides/statutory-register-marriages) (this is the new site) explains that its marriages include "the Minor Records of marriages overseas." Further, this lot include:

  • Consular returns (from 1917) - certified copies of registrations by British consuls relating to persons of Scottish descent or birth
  • Register of births, deaths and marriages in foreign counties (1860-1965) - includes marriages of Scots with entries made on the basis of information supplied by the parties concerned and after consideration of the evidence of each event
  • Foreign marriages (from 1947) - certified copies of certificates (with translations) relating to marriages of persons from Scotland in certain foreign countries according to local laws and without the presence of a British consular officer
  • High Commissioners' returns (from 1964) - some returns are available for marriages in certain Commonwealth countries
  • Consular and foreign records combined series (from 1975)
  • Service records (from 1881)

    - Army returns (1881-1959) - marriages of Scottish persons at military stations abroad
    - Services Departments' registers (from 1 April 1959) - marriages outside the United Kingdom relating to persons ordinarily resident in Scotland who are serving in, or employed by, HM Forces, including the families of members of the Forces
    - Certified copies of entries relating to marriages solemnised by Army chaplains outside the United Kingdom since 1892 where one of the parties is described as Scottish and at least one of the parties is serving in HM Forces

There are all sorts of queries that this description gives rise to but to summarise:
  • There is no George Lillington marriage within 10y of 1919, so he / they never registered the marriage with the GRO(S) - but why should they?
  • I ran off a full list of marriages in the Minor Records / Service Returns and investigated whether they were in the FMP British Nationals Armed Forces Marriages 1796-2005, British Nationals Married Overseas 1818-2005, British Overseas Marriages and British Royal Marines, Marriage Registers 1813-1920. Well, no I didn't. I looked at the first two on the list and both were in the FMP Index of Army Marriages, so in some cases at least the GRO(England & Wales) processed the data and fed it to the GRO(S).

Whether any Scots data in the stuff that has never been indexed by the GRO got through to GRO(S) or whether any stuff reached GRO(S) without being otherwise indexed and / or retained by the GRO(E&W), I have no idea. But it would always be worth a check, especially now that search results on SP are free.
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Re: Marriage confirmation from birth certificate Scotland c

Postby junkers » Sun Oct 09, 2016 8:58 pm

According to the War Forum messages there was a son born in 1931 in Portsmouth /Hayling Island, so I don't understand why there would be an entry in Scotland. Have you checked on Scotland's People website using both the father and mother's maiden name, just to confirm if there are other children.
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