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Brick wall: Liverpool Shortall

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Re: Brick wall: Liverpool Shortall

Postby Karen196 » Wed Sep 28, 2016 9:35 pm

His death certificate says he was born in 1887, so he's definitely flaky with his age as you say.

I found the one in Clonmel too when I thought he might be born in Ireland but the Census's both point to him being born in Liverpool, so I feel like I'm going around in circles.

The people listed on the 1939 register are his children - I have concrete information post marriage but none prior.

Appreciate the help and advice


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Re: Brick wall: Liverpool Shortall

Postby Karen196 » Wed Sep 28, 2016 9:39 pm

Or the '1' in 1881 is really a 7


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Re: Brick wall: Liverpool Shortall

Postby ianbee » Wed Sep 28, 2016 10:28 pm

Yes, the 1939 Register is a copy of a copy! So somewhere along the line 1887 could have been misread as 1881.

Couple of 1915 crew lists - with images! - from the National Maritime Museum
http://1915crewlists.rmg.co.uk/

featuring a 28 year old John Shortal / J Shortal, able seaman on the Arabic. Don't know if that's your man or not, he is from Liverpool.
http://1915crewlists.rmg.co.uk/document ... d=1&pid=13
http://1915crewlists.rmg.co.uk/document ... d=1&pid=12

Family Search report the possibility that John in the Birkdale Farm School in the 1901 census was recorded twice there? On page 2, as well as page 5 (is John Shoxtalls on ancestry). Or could there have been two in the same place, seems unlikely?
Name: John Shortalls
Gender: Male
Age: 16
Occupation: Shoemaker
Relationship: Inmate (Under Detention)
Birthplace: Liverpool, Lancashire
Civil Parish: Birkdale
County: Lancashire
Ecclesiastical Parish: St John
Sub-District: Formby
Registration District: Ormskirk
Page Number: 2

Re the 1891 family or families in Bevington Street
I would think that the birth registration of Mary Catherine Shortle, Sep 1882, Liverpool, is probably relevant.
She seems to have married (as Shortal) to William Woods,17 March 1901, I think at St Titus, Liverpool (location from Lancashire BMD) Age 18, father John Shortal
And then again in 1919 at St Ambrose, Liverpool, as a widow, to John Henry Styles. Father John Shortall, Oil Miller.
A big difference being that both marriages were C of E. Whereas John Joseph was most decidedly RC.
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Re: Brick wall: Liverpool Shortall

Postby Karen196 » Wed Oct 12, 2016 7:41 pm

Just a quick update to say we have found him. Thanks for all the advice. I found a John Shortall died in 1902 in Liverpool which tied in with the deceased on the marriage cert, I ordered his death certificate and he lived at the address that his son then lived in at a later date. Also found an auntie too - thanks :-)


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Re: Brick wall: Liverpool Shortall

Postby Karen196 » Sun Oct 23, 2016 8:06 am

Still cannot find a birth index or baptism for John Joseph Shortall though born approx 1887


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Re: Brick wall: Liverpool Shortall

Postby ianbee » Sun Oct 23, 2016 9:27 am

What did the 1902 death certificate of John Shortall say?
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Re: Brick wall: Liverpool Shortall

Postby Karen196 » Tue Nov 08, 2016 9:27 pm

ImageUploadedByWDYTYA Forum1478640240.834121.jpg
ImageUploadedByWDYTYA Forum1478640240.834121.jpg (67.08 KiB) Viewed 1356 times
sorry for the delay. I now can't find a birth index for him or his son John Joseph, so am no further on really. Every turn turns up more questions than answers. I believe he married Mary Rooney and had several children but none appear to be John Joseph, so the only thing I have linking the two John Shortall's is that JJS born approx 1887 lived in Burlington Street, Liverpool in the 1939 census and John Shortall senior died there but still no catholic birth record or birth index.



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Re: Brick wall: Liverpool Shortall

Postby Karen196 » Sun Nov 20, 2016 6:42 pm

Finally managed to break down my brick wall! On the birth index, he is listed as John Joseph Rooney (Rosney on census) I took a guess and ordered the birth cert and it is John Joseph Shortall! There was no father listed, but the mother was Mary Rooney so the official must have listed him as Rooney even though the document says Shortall, whom she later married.


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Re: Brick wall: Liverpool Shortall

Postby AdrianB38 » Sun Nov 20, 2016 7:49 pm

Sorry - so we understand, which document says Shortall and where?

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Re: Brick wall: Liverpool Shortall

Postby Karen196 » Sun Dec 18, 2016 9:22 pm

The birth index says John Joseph Rosney, when I ordered the birth record it says John Joseph Shortall, no father listed but mother Rooney, so am presuming that the index person put him as Rosney, meaning Rooney in the absence of a father. All very confusing


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