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HMP Westminster

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Re: HMP Westminster

Postby SDV » Wed Sep 21, 2016 12:25 pm

Just a quick comeback on a couple of replies.

I have looked at the Old Bailey site in the past and the Mary Ann mentioned is not my relative.

As for her husband, he was a costermonger/fishmonger.

I always thought that HMP Westminster was the one at Tothill, though I could be wrong.

In case, it helps I attach a copy of the birth certificate.
1880 Birth Cert.jpg
1880 Birth Cert.jpg (717.69 KiB) Viewed 1239 times
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Re: HMP Westminster

Postby AdrianB38 » Wed Sep 21, 2016 2:20 pm

I would agree that Tothill appears to be the correct interpretation. There are contemporary newspaper references that stack up to Tothill and Millbank only seems to enter the picture by reason of a supposed earlier transfer of all inmates, which we now have no evidence for.

I can't see any further clues on that certificate. Doesn't mean that there aren't any, just that I can't see them if there are. If she is a prisoner, then the Registrar must have come to her but I can't see anything to confirm even that.

So I think that you need to spend some time using FindMyPast (legal stuff and newspapers) and Ancestry to see if anything pops up. Find a library with the appropriate subs if you don't have them - FMP seems the bigger source at first glance.

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Re: HMP Westminster

Postby junkers » Thu Sep 22, 2016 8:53 pm

As the birth was in February 1880 I think we can assume that she couldn't have been a prisoner before April/May 1879 based on the time she would have been pregnant. Have you checked the Calendar of Prisoners (series HO 140 at The National Archives, Kew), they are not on line which if we assume that she would have been before a London court then those Calendars should help and should list her occupation.
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Re: HMP Westminster

Postby SDV » Mon Sep 26, 2016 4:07 pm

The records housed at the National Archives seem to stop in 1872, which is a few years before the time of interest 1879-1881.

Does anyone know of any local newspapers online that could be useful? There is a problem that I do not know where the offence was committed. I assume it was either in the area where they lived, i.e. Hornsey/Southgate/Islington or in the Westminster area.

I don't seem to be getting anywhere with this search.
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Re: HMP Westminster

Postby ianbee » Mon Sep 26, 2016 4:28 pm

HO 140 is online (findmypast) for most years, for example 1878 and the record of the wrong Mary Ann Daniels.
May not have all records for 1879 yet?
1878 - 3,485 records on fmp for HO 140 London/Middlesex
1879 - 19 records on fmp for HO 140 London/Middlesex
Or can they be browsed on that website, but are not yet indexed?

Calendar of Prisoners ... ls/r/C9004
Date: 1868-1971

My initial thought was that Mary Ann must have left the prison by the time the birth was registered. I mean, her address is given as 31 Hillside Road, Wood Green, Hornsey, not HMP Westminster. What was to stop George Thomas registering the birth if Mary was still in prison? (other than not mentioning that they weren't married!)

No luck with the papers so far on BNA, all that's come up is a somewhat bizarre story from early 1881, about a John and Mary Ann Daniels in Hornsey being assaulted by a man. As they were described as fishmongers, I wondered if the papers might have got Mr Daniels' name wrong. We may never know!
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Re: HMP Westminster

Postby SDV » Wed Sep 28, 2016 1:41 pm

My understanding was that the registrar visited the prison to record births, though I may well be mistaken.
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