Moderator Control Panel ]

Did Samuel come up the river Severn?

A problem shared is a problem halved. Post your brick walls here and see whether you can offer advice to others

Did Samuel come up the river Severn?

Postby mjcosj » Mon Sep 12, 2016 12:19 pm

I have hit a brick wall even after paying for a researcher (admittedly only one hours worth) in searching for Samuel Charles 1795 born Swansea, South Wales. The result was inconclusive and un-certain.
I know that I have seen in Black and White that he was born in Saint Mary's Swansea but there is no baptismal or Newspaper reference.
He is the 1951 census as coming from Swansea.
I have all of his family born in Telford Red Lake, Ketley, Wellington), his marriage to Elizabeth Price, etc.
I think that he must have left Swansea (a world copper producing area) and made his way up the river Severn to what is today Telford where he became an Iron Miner.

Can anyone please suggest an avenue of research?
Many thanks
Mike and Linda
mjcosj
 
Posts: 46
Joined: Sun Sep 11, 2016 11:56 am

Re: Did Samuel come up the river Severn?

Postby sdup26 » Mon Sep 12, 2016 5:53 pm

There's a baptism for a Samuel at Swansea St Mary 1795, but the surname is Cade.

In the 1851 census, your Samuel said he was born in South Wales, Swansea, but I haven't found a birth/baptism for him there. Previously, in the 1841 census, Samuel lived in Wellington, Shropshire, and said he was born in the county. There's a baptism for a Samuel Charles born June 1798, baptised Feb 1799, Hopton Wafers, Shropshire, father Edward, mother Elizabeth.
sdup26
 
Posts: 1483
Joined: Tue Apr 19, 2011 4:34 pm

Re: Did Samuel come up the river Severn?

Postby mjcosj » Mon Sep 12, 2016 7:43 pm

Many thanks sdup26
Like you I saw the Hopton Wafers record but even allowing for poor writing I have never been able to reconcile that Samuel Charles to my relative. The 1951 census states that he was born in Swant, Wales. On a different record it tells me that he was born in Swansea South wales so I am sure that it is the correct area.
Many thanks for looking
Mike and Linda
mjcosj
 
Posts: 46
Joined: Sun Sep 11, 2016 11:56 am

Re: Did Samuel come up the river Severn?

Postby sdup26 » Tue Sep 13, 2016 5:06 pm

On Ancestry, Samuel's birthplace on the 1851 census could be read as Swansea, but has been transcribed as 'Swant' which doesn't exist in Glamorganshire. The same 1851 census image has been reproduced on findmypast, but they've lightened it, so it's much clearer, and really does look like Swansea, which is how it's been transcribed on that site. It's reasonable to assume this must be Samuel's correct birthplace, except that in 1841, he said he was born in Shropshire. Both can't be right.

Just a thought when searching for a baptism. Is there any chance Samuel's surname was a patronymic? Not uncommon in Wales, it meant a child could take the Christian name of its father as a surname. When I was searching for your Samuel, I found a 1796 baptism entry for a Samuel Charles in Flint, and in the margin, it says, "note patronymic; father's name was Charles Davies."
sdup26
 
Posts: 1483
Joined: Tue Apr 19, 2011 4:34 pm

Re: Did Samuel come up the river Severn?

Postby mjcosj » Tue Sep 13, 2016 7:41 pm

Hi sduo26
Thank you for your valuable efforts. I really appreciate your help.
Flint is in North Wales rather than Swansea which is in the South.
The 1841 census never listed a place of birth only the location of the census which was Wellington. He never actually says that he was from Wellington.
The patronomyic is a fascinating consideration, one I hadnt considered.
I am sure that Samuel came from Swansea or that he was telling porkies on the 1851 census though I cannot immediatley see why he would do that.
I have been searching for many years and I am determined to come to an understanding about his birthplace and my forbears.
Thank you again.
Kind regards
Mike
mjcosj
 
Posts: 46
Joined: Sun Sep 11, 2016 11:56 am

Re: Did Samuel come up the river Severn?

Postby Sylcec » Tue Sep 13, 2016 11:06 pm

There is no necessity for Samuel to have been baptised as an infant, or for that matter, baptised at all! This is more likely if his parents belonged to a non-conformist chapel. There were and are Quakers in Swansea from when George Fox visited in 1657. http://www.neathquakers.org/350-years-Of-Quakers-in-Neath-Swansea
Undoubtedly there were various Baptist, Independent and Methodist groups.
(By was of example: in Leicestershire my gt grandfather & his siblings were baptised at the ages of 15 and 17 & 18, with one sister never having been baptised!)
User avatar
Sylcec
 
Posts: 2509
Joined: Sun Aug 17, 2008 4:36 pm
Location: Sydney, Australia

Re: Did Samuel come up the river Severn?

Postby mjcosj » Wed Sep 14, 2016 7:39 am

Hi Sylec
I did think about the non-conformist chapels but have to admit that I had "hoped" that since Samuel and Elizabeth were married in the Anglican Church and their Children Christened that the pattern of Christenings would have been a part of his upbringing too.
I cannot think of any avenues outside of the box that might be useful. Looks like the dead end continues.
Many thanks for you endeavours
Mike
mjcosj
 
Posts: 46
Joined: Sun Sep 11, 2016 11:56 am

Re: Did Samuel come up the river Severn?

Postby sdup26 » Wed Sep 14, 2016 10:00 am

Yes, Flint is a long way from Glamorgan - it just happened to have an example of a patronymic. Sorry to be pedantic about this, but in the 1841 census, the question wasn't about which town someone was born in. It asked, were you born in this County or not? with the column showing the answer 'yes' or 'no' (or a letter Y or N) and Samuel's entry has a Y, so yes to Shropshire. But many researchers have examples of ancestors giving different places of birth on different censuses, and it's very frustrating! I agree with you that Samuel had no reason to come up with Swansea in 1851, and in your shoes, I'd be concentrating on that. Just wish he'd said No in 1841 and saved you a headache!

You say you had a researcher for a short period - have you contacted the Glamorgan Family History Society about your search?(www.glamfhs.org.uk) They may have the records you're after, and if you have to join to access them, membership will be a lot cheaper than another researcher.
sdup26
 
Posts: 1483
Joined: Tue Apr 19, 2011 4:34 pm

Re: Did Samuel come up the river Severn?

Postby mjcosj » Wed Sep 14, 2016 11:13 am

Sylec, you are a star! I totally agree with you about the 1841 census. Having transcribed many thousands of census, marriage and poor law records I am aware of how some of the early census takers were not as diligent as the later takers were. Samuel has been a conundrum for years.
I became a member of the Glamorgan Family History Society some years ago and enlisted the help of a member in Swansea but the details the provided me with did not tie up with My Granddaddy.
I had hoped that perhaps putting this question on the ask the experts page might have helped but it was removed from there and put back on here.
Thank You friend.
Mike
mjcosj
 
Posts: 46
Joined: Sun Sep 11, 2016 11:56 am

Re: Did Samuel come up the river Severn?

Postby Sylcec » Wed Sep 14, 2016 10:17 pm

Ah Mike - it is sdup26 who is the star in this case, not me! But - I totally agree with her info and advice. Glamorgan FHS has a great deal of expertise - see if you can get hold of their Rosemary Smith - she is an absolute terrier.
User avatar
Sylcec
 
Posts: 2509
Joined: Sun Aug 17, 2008 4:36 pm
Location: Sydney, Australia


Return to General research queries


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 0 guests

cron