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Brick wall - John Perryman 1826 - 1882, London/Middx

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Brick wall - John Perryman 1826 - 1882, London/Middx

Postby rfitzgerald1963 » Tue Aug 30, 2016 12:42 am

hit a brick wall and hope someone can help, John Perryman my 3x Great Grandfather Born about 1826, in either Shoreditch or Bethnal Green son of John Perryman Class Cutter, i have found him on the census from 1851 till his death and i know his wife was Elizabeth Susannah Soper, but i cannot find him before 1851, no census and no birth certificate. and was hoping someone might be able to point me in the right direction.


Thanks


Richard
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Brick wall - John Perryman 1826 - 1882, London/Middx

Postby brunes08 » Tue Aug 30, 2016 7:41 am

You will not find a birth certificate for John because formal registration didn't start until 1837. You will, therefore have to look for a possible baptism in the surrounding parishes where you think he was born. Even if you find an appropriate baptism it may not give you an accurate year of birth because sometimes infants were not baptised until they were older. Have you found the marriage for his parents as this could give you a starting point?
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Re: Brick wall - John Perryman 1826 - 1882, London/Middx

Postby pennyfather54 » Tue Aug 30, 2016 4:51 pm

You will also find parts of the 1841 census for Shoreditch are missing, the returns of electors were not all returned or were lost. My family also from Shoreditch are missing on the 1841 Census, and I have confirmed their area Hatfield Street & Deans Court are missing from the census.


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Re: Brick wall - John Perryman 1826 - 1882, London/Middx

Postby ianbee » Tue Aug 30, 2016 5:20 pm

Hi
Residence for John Perryman on the 1846 marriage entry is 12 Parliament St.
There is a Perryman family in Jubilee Place, off Parliament Street, Bethnal Green, in 1841. Transcribed as Bergman on ancestry.
piece 692 book 8 folio 36 page 1
Jubillee Place
Richard Perryman 35 Plasterer J.
Louisa Perryman 30
William Perryman 15
John Perryman 11
Thomas Perryman 10
Elizabeth Perryman 2
all born county

Seven houses in all in Jubilee Place, then back to Parliament Street
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Re: Brick wall - John Perryman 1826 - 1882, London/Middx

Postby ianbee » Tue Aug 30, 2016 5:30 pm

Well, that John in 1841 aged 11 appears to be
Richard John Perryman
bap 22 August 1830, St Leonard Shoreditch
parents Richard + Louisa
father a Plaisterer

And he seems to have married Hannah Strover in Bethnal Green in 1856.
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Re: Brick wall - John Perryman 1826 - 1882, London/Middx

Postby rfitzgerald1963 » Tue Aug 30, 2016 11:27 pm

Thanks Ianbee, my John is a Glass cutter on his marriage record and on the 1851 Census so do not think this is the same person, I have a baptism record for a John Benjamin who was born 1824, son of John & Mary Perryman (nee Pollington) baptised at St Leonards, Shoreditch which i think is the right one. and from what Pennyfather54 says about the census this would explain why I can't find a record. my only problem with this baptism is that his father is listed as a shopkeeper and then on the marriage record he is a glass cutter the same as his son, so not certain the are the same but cannot find any others which seem to make sense. the naming convention for his children seems to support this as possibility as his second daughter is Mary ann & first sone is John George, I know this is not always followed but the family history does support this as the norm.



Regards


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Re: Brick wall - John Perryman 1826 - 1882, London/Middx

Postby Mick Loney » Wed Aug 31, 2016 6:08 am

Sorry, it doesn't follow, or am I missing something?

How does being a Glasscutter in 1851 stop this 1841 entry being the correct John? At 11 years old, he's hardly likely to have started a trade yet, so don't discount him because he isn't a glasscutter! The 10 years between censuses is long enough to start and finish an apprenticeship if needed, as they were generally for about 7 years.


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Re: Brick wall - John Perryman 1826 - 1882, London/Middx

Postby sdup26 » Wed Aug 31, 2016 9:08 am

It's possible that John's father was a shopkeeper when his son was baptised, and then became a glass cutter soon after, with his son following him into the trade. As Mick rightly says, censuses being ten years apart, a lot could happen in that time. Another possibility is that when he married, John said 'glasscutter' for his father as well as for himself, in error. I think the baptism you found (with mother Mary nee Pollington), is on London C of E records. Have you checked non-conformist baptisms too?

This could be just a name coincidence, but there's a case at Middlesex assizes in 1843, when a John Perryman accused a woman of stealing a pin from his jacket. He gave his address as Bishops Terrace; don't know if that would help with an address search.
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Re: Brick wall - John Perryman 1826 - 1882, London/Middx

Postby ianbee » Wed Aug 31, 2016 4:03 pm

There's a settlement examination of Mary Perryman in Shoreditch in 1826
Married her husband John, 20 Sep 1820, at St Matthew Bethnal Green.
Has son John, aged 3
Husband very ill.

On ancestry -
Name: Mary Perryman
Event Date: 20 Sep 1826
Poor Law Union or Parish: Shoreditch
London, England, Selected Poor Law Removal and Settlement Records, 1698-1930

Another examination in Shoreditch, 25 February 1845
John Rowe, age 38, Glass Cutter
Says he married Mary Perryman, 27 May 1827, at Sepulchre
(found as ancestry have usefully indexed Mary Perryman as well)

St Sepulchre marriage register entry shows that Mary Perryman was a widow when she married John Rowe. She marked, as did Mary Pollington in 1820.
Ian
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Re: Brick wall - John Perryman 1826 - 1882, London/Middx

Postby ianbee » Wed Aug 31, 2016 4:34 pm

Possible burial?
Gibraltar Row Burial Ground, Bethnal Green
1 October 1826
John Perryman
age 36

On ancestry, England & Wales, Non-Conformist and Non-Parochial Registers, 1567-1970
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