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East Indian Company Pensioner

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East Indian Company Pensioner

Postby SDV » Thu Aug 04, 2016 9:32 am

Hi

One of my distant relatives John DANIELS (var sp Daniel, Daniell, Daniells), who was born in Dec 1815 at Winchmore Hill and baptised at All Saints in Edmonton in Dec 2015, goes missing from the records after his birth.

There is a possible re-appearance in 1861, when a John Daniels (45) turns up in Hackney. This man is a labourer and a pensioner of the I E Company. He has a wife Gertrude (40), who was born in Germany, but is a British subject. He also has 4 children, the eldest of which was born in Germany c1850.

The family continue living in Hackney throughout the 1871, 1881, 1891 and 1901 censuses. The only real change being that his wife is now listed as Elizabeth.

John Daniel dies in Hackney in 1902, whilst his wife Gertrude Elizabeth Daniels dies in Hackney in 1903.

Obviously I would like to track down details of his marriage to Gertrude Elizabeth. I have applied for the birth certificate of their youngest son, which will hopefully provide her unmarried name.

But most importantly, in order to confirm that the John Daniels who reappears in 1861 is indeed my relative, I really need to find out something about his service with the East India Company.

Is anybody upto speed with East India Company records? Which ones would I need to consult? And where are they located?
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Re: East Indian Company Pensioner

Postby AdrianB38 » Thu Aug 04, 2016 11:03 am

Have you looked at the FIBIS website? Their Wiki is on http://wiki.fibis.org/index.php/Main_Page and is the place I would start with given that it's about families in British India, the first part of the story of which is the story of the East India Company.

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Re: East Indian Company Pensioner

Postby SDV » Thu Aug 04, 2016 11:25 am

I have entered John Daniels - and variants - into the search engine on that site and have had no hits.

I am wondering whether he worked for the EIC in this country rather than India.
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Re: East Indian Company Pensioner

Postby MaureenE » Thu Aug 04, 2016 11:26 am

It perhaps is more likely that he worked for the East India Company in London, rather than in India, although he could be a retired soldier who worked for one of the in the East India Company's armies in India. However, most of these soldiers remained in India, or had died in service.

There is a British Library blog titled "East India Company London workers"
http://britishlibrary.typepad.co.uk/unt ... rkers.html

This refers to a warehouse admissions register warehouse admissions register warehouse admissions register for permanent labourers and writers (or copyists) entering the Company London warehouses between June 1801 and November 1832. I tried the Search, but did not see a suitable record.

I do not know whether these are the only records available for the London East india Company workers - perhaps you could contact the British Library.

Cheers
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Re: East Indian Company Pensioner

Postby MoVidger » Thu Aug 04, 2016 1:42 pm

I know this doesn't help with your search, but I have a direct ancestor who was an EIC pensioner. He was born in Isleworth, but moved his family to St George in the East when he was hired by the EIC in 1818. The BL record I found for him online is very interesting.

It states he had been a "print cutter", which matches the occupation on his children's baptism records ("calico print cutter"). He was initially employed as a "warehouseman", but is a "porter with EIC" by the 1841 census. In the 1851 census, he is an "EIC pensioner".

I've always wondered if the BL hold any additional EIC records for their London workers, but have never enquired. It would be interesting to know more about my ancestor's transition from warehouseman to porter (and what a porter did in the EIC).

Good luck with your search...
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Re: East Indian Company Pensioner

Postby AdrianB38 » Thu Aug 04, 2016 3:40 pm

Baxter's Guide to Biographical Sources in the India Office Records (published by FIBIS) mentions salary books of established and non-established home staff (i.e. EIC employees based in the UK).

The stuff is in the India Office Records at the British Library (not quite sure why it ended up there rather than at Kew - just history, I guess), references:
IOR/L/AG/9/4/13 - 20
IOR/L/AG/19/2/1 - 10
IOR/L/AG/19/3/1 - 7

There are also records of pensions paid to retired home staff.
IOR/L/AG/9/4 & 21/1

The Guide gives more details of other records.

I find the BL Catalogue for the IOR stuff somewhat, err, challenging. So far as I can see it's a single catalogue for all the BL's Archive collections, of which the IOR stuff is but a part. It's on http://searcharchives.bl.uk/primo_library/libweb/action/search.do?mode=Advanced&ct=AdvancedSearch&dscnt=0&fromLogin=true&dstmp=1470322443635&vid=IAMS_VU2 - or you might find it easier to go to http://www.bl.uk/, choose Catalogues / Archives & Manuscripts and switch to the Advanced Search. Unlike the TNA Catalogue, there's no obvious way to restrict the reference to IOR but I think it can be done by setting "Anywhere" to "Reference Code" then put "IOR" after "Contains". Or you can put those references in to see what they are described as.

Maureen's Warehousemen reference is interesting (and I've bookmarked it) but the blog item suggests that the guys are "East India Company warehouse labourers appointed 1801-1832" - your chap may have joined after that date.
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Re: East Indian Company Pensioner

Postby SDV » Fri Aug 05, 2016 10:01 am

Thanks for the various inputs. I would see a visit to the BL as a last resort. Having used it before, I know that its catalogue is a nightmare. On one occasion, on a day trip to London from Norfolk, I achieved precisely nothing, failing to navigate through the catalogue to anything useful.

If as suggested earlier, he was a worker in the London warehouse, this raises the question of where was he in the 1841 and 1851 censuses? His absence in those, makes me think he was abroad somewhere, in some form of military service. But where?

The other complication is his wife Gertrude Elizabeth, who was German born, though a British subject. Where did he meet her? I can think of three possibilities: London, Germany and India. Sorting that out would help immensely.

Moreover, their first child was also born in Germany. Does this indicate the couple were in Germany around 1850, when Mary was born? Or does it point to Mary being from an earlier marriage by Gertrude Elizabeth.

Very frustrating.
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Re: East Indian Company Pensioner

Postby MoVidger » Fri Aug 05, 2016 4:31 pm

John must have been in the military because the 1871 census states "Pensioner (Artillery)" and the 1891 census indicates "Pensioner (soldier)". Have you checked Find My Past for any possible military records relating to John?
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Re: East Indian Company Pensioner

Postby AdrianB38 » Fri Aug 05, 2016 5:34 pm

I am having difficulty in putting a plausible time line together mentally for John. If I try to include everything in one story, in particular if I assume that the eldest is both his and born in Germany, then I can't see how he gets a pension from being in the military in the EIC. I've no idea how long you needed to be in the EIC military to get a pension but we're typically talking 20y in the British Army. If (big if) it's a similar period in the EIC military, then how does he get that time in, in India, as an adult soldier, then get over to Germany? The advantage of being employed by the EIC in the UK, would be to remove the travel time between the UK and India plus possibly allowing them to meet in London.

What about further details of the eldest? Any clues in censuses? Does she marry and give a father's name?

None of this is hard analysis.... But I can't see a simple way forward......


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Re: East Indian Company Pensioner

Postby MoVidger » Fri Aug 05, 2016 7:23 pm

I could be totally wrong, but a possible scenario is that after John left the army, he was employed as a labourer for the East India Company (as per the 1861 census). And that he received his pension for his military service. I don't know if he would have worked long enough for the EIC (as a labourer) to receive a pension from them, as he is already retired by 1871.

Based on the various census records, I wouldn't classify him as an "East Indian Company Pensioner", unless his military records prove otherwise.
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