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East Indian Company Pensioner

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Re: East Indian Company Pensioner

Postby ianbee » Wed Jan 11, 2017 10:22 am

Well it does suggest that Mrs Mentzel is the Daniels daughter seen in Hackney earlier. Hence their visiting in 1881 - found by Adrian.
But has SDV found the Mentzels in 1871? Or on a passenger list? Perhaps the lady Gustav went to America with, and had probably married in 1870, Karolina Marian Grassman, is not the same person. Although it's not unknown to find a different "maiden name" for the same mother on birth certificates over time.
Death, March 1938 Willesen 3a 392
Mentzel, Mary Caroline
age 90
Pretty much the same names as in 1870, reversed

That Sarah Daniel birth in Hackney in 1859 looks right
Ian
EDIT - 1911 census, Willesden. The Mentzels say they have been married 41 years.
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Re: East Indian Company Pensioner

Postby ianbee » Wed Jan 11, 2017 5:23 pm

There could be another puzzle with that daughter Elizabeth, born around 1855
SDV wrote:Informant Elizabeth LOFTHOUSE (granddaughter) of 20 Margaret Street.

This must be the daughter of said Elizabeth Daniels and her husband George James. Living at 20 Margaret Street, Hackney in 1891, and in 1901, along with John and Elizabeth Daniels.
George James born circa 1850/1, Hackney. In 1891 and 1911 he is described as a Cooper. Which is also the occupation given for her father by the widowed Elizabeth Lofthouse nee James when she remarried in 1915. I don't think her first marriage (to George Charles Lofthouse?) is online.

In 1911 George and Elizabeth they say that they have been married for 34 years. But there is no marriage for Elizabeth Daniels to George James.
There is this one -
23 December 1877, South Hackney
George James, full, Bachelor, Wine Cooper, father Henry James, Baker
+
Elizabeth Crossman, full, Spinster, father Daniel Crossman, Gardener
residence for both 2 Well Street.

Henry James, the Baker, can be found in the census in the Hackney area very easily, and has a son George (4 months old in 1851 in Stoke Newington)
But the only Daniel Crossman about appears to be one born in 1840 in Devon. He was still around in the 1861 census, not seen later.
Has Elizabeth Daniels married as Crossman, and made her father's name up? Using the Daniel surname as his first name?
Ian
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Re: East Indian Company Pensioner

Postby SDV » Wed Jan 11, 2017 5:52 pm

The MENTZEL developments are interesting, but as of yet not clear cut.

I have been working back from the Elizabeth LOFTHOUSE, who was the informant on the death certificates of both John DANIELS and Gertrude Elizabeth DANIELS. According to the certificates, she was their grand-daughter, living just down the road from them in 27 Margaret Street.

I have looked at the 1911 census, where she is a widow, aged 33, still living in Hackney. This is consistent with an Elizabeth JAMES, who married a George Charles LOFTHOUSE in 1899 [Q1 1899 Hackney 1b 651]. Assuming that this is correct, there was an Elizabeth James born in Hackney in 1879 [Q1 1879 Hackney 1b 352]. According to the GRO index, the mother's maiden name was DANIELS.

So - assuming all the above - Elizabeth James is the daughter of one of John and Gertrude's daughters, who married a man with the surname JAMES. This marriage must have been post 1870, unless there are children we do not know about.

Any thoughts?
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Re: East Indian Company Pensioner

Postby ianbee » Wed Jan 11, 2017 6:45 pm

SDV wrote:Any thoughts?

My thoughts are in my previous post!
She is living with her parents at 20 Margaret Street in 1891. So Elizabeth is her mum. But the only marriage I can see is the 1877 Hackney one I mentioned. The details would fit the George James we can see in the census very well.
His bride said her father was a Gardener.
And we haven't really found a birth registration for Elizabeth Daniels.
Obviously, John must be the father of Sarah and George William. Beginning to wonder if he is the father of either Mary or Elizabeth!
Grassman, Crossman, is there some kind of link there?

Haven't found the Lofthouse family in 1901. They are not at 20 Margaret Street!
Ian
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Re: East Indian Company Pensioner

Postby SDV » Thu Jan 12, 2017 9:53 am

Sorry ianbee, I was so pre-occupied with my own research that I totally missed your post. I must admit that I am coming round to the view that there are two different fathers for the four children. Clearly John is the father of Sarah and George William, but is there a mister Grasmann or Crossman (anglicised?) who fathered Mary Caroline and Elizabeth.

We still need to get to grips with the revelation that the mother of Sarah and George William maiden name was Post or Ponte.

I intend to spend a little more time on this today and will post any findings.
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Re: East Indian Company Pensioner

Postby SDV » Thu Jan 12, 2017 11:39 am

Some findings:

Elizabeth JAMES: b Q1 1879 Hackney 1b 532, m1 George Charles LOFTHOUSE, Q1 1899 Hackney 1b 651, m2 Arthur W STENNING, Q3 1915 Hackney 1b 1372.

Elizabeth CROSSMAN: b Q4 1854 Whitechapel 1c 335?, m George JAMES, Q4 1877 Hackney 1b 817, d Q1 1935 Hackney 1b 476?

I think it is almost certain that CROSSMAN is an anglicisation of either GRASMANN or GROSMANN.

I now definitely think that both Mary Caroline and Elizabeth were NOT fathered by John DANIELS. For a start both were born before September 1855, when he was discharged. Before that date, he was in India. Then there is the fact that they both use Grasman or variations as their unmarried names.


I think the one avenue we haven't explored thoroughly enough, and the one I intend to look into today, is the MMN given on the birth certificates of Sarah and George William, i.e. PONT, POUT or PONTE.

I am beginning to think that Gertrude Elizabeth was married prior to meeting John. Was PONT, POUT or PONTE her married name or maiden name. It would really help to find any marriage for Gertrud Elizabeth. And are we discounting Elizabeth Rhodes?

Interesting to note the presence in 1891 of the two Webster sisters Emma and Susan. George William DANIELS (1861-1932) married a Mary Ann WEBSTER in 1880 in Bethnal Green. So there is probably some relationship.

The other interesting question is what happened to Sarah after 1861? In 1871 she would have been 12, but isn't in the family home. Has she died? Possibly Q1 1867 Hackney 1b 343.

One final thought. Mary was born in Germany c1850, but Elizabeth was born in England in c1854/5. So Gertrude and Mary must have travelled to England between 1850 and 1855. I have had a quick look at shipping lists and there are some possible Grasmans, assuming that this is the name they travelled under.
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Re: East Indian Company Pensioner

Postby SDV » Fri Jan 13, 2017 11:46 am

I have been in contact with a person on Ancestry who has the Mentzel family in his family tree, evidently Karoline Marian Mentzel (nee Grassman) is his wife's 2x Great Grandmother. He has a copy of Mary Caroline's marriage certificate to Gustav Richard. According to him, her father was a Joseph Grassman, a French polisher living at 20 Pitt Street.

I haven't followed this up yet, so don't know its significance. But it is another line of enquiry.
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Re: East Indian Company Pensioner

Postby ianbee » Fri Jan 13, 2017 2:51 pm

Another French Polisher! Would imagine there must have been a Mr Grassman, not sure we'll ever know exactly who he was.
Marriage was in St Pancras, and there was a Pitt Street there. In 1871 number 20 is piece 209 folio 42 pages 75 + 76.

Sadly, Sarah may have died
March 1867, Hackney 1b 343
Daniel, Sarah
age 7
Can't see a burial online, so no more info I'm afraid.
Ian
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Re: East Indian Company Pensioner

Postby SDV » Wed Jan 18, 2017 3:18 pm

I'm not sure if it helps, but I sent for the birth certificate of an Elizabeth CROSSMAN born in Whitechapel in Q4 1854. The birth certificate reveals that Elizabeth CROSSMAN was born 22 Oct 1854 at 2 Bickle Street, Whitechapel. Her father was Peter CROSSMAN, a labourer. Her mother was Elizabeth CROSSMAN, formerly CROSSMAN. I'm puzzled by her mother's maiden name being the same as her married name, though I suppose she may have married a cousin. I'm not sure if this takes me any closer to identifying this Elizabeth as Mary Caroline's sister or indeed as the one who married George JAMES.
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Re: East Indian Company Pensioner

Postby SDV » Thu Jan 19, 2017 10:31 am

Once again, I'm not sure whether this helps, but this morning I received a death certificate for Sarah DANIEL, the daughter of John DANIEL, a ground labourer. Sarah died, aged 7, on 02 Feb 1867 of small-pox at 6 Cottage Place, Hackney.
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