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East Indian Company Pensioner

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Re: East Indian Company Pensioner

Postby AdrianB38 » Thu Aug 25, 2016 5:43 pm

This doesn't sound right. It's not the same maiden name as the French Polisher's marriage. And a gardener's labourer doesn't sound like a Polisher after all.

We need to back track I fear. I'm now not sure what matches to who.

Apologies.


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Re: East Indian Company Pensioner

Postby AdrianB38 » Thu Aug 25, 2016 9:57 pm

Is that birth certificate a photocopy or a transcript?

That is definitely the child from the 1861 census - it's the exact same address and the precise number of days. That's the 1861 where we believed the father's occupation was "Labourer Pen E I Comy". That "E I" is so curly it could be mistaken on the census for "Gd", i.e. "Garden", as per the BC. But I'll swear it isn't "Garden".
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Re: East Indian Company Pensioner

Postby SDV » Fri Aug 26, 2016 10:08 am

As far as I know, it is a photocopy. The mother's maiden name isn't terribly clear. I will attach the relevant part for people to view.

I think the next step is trying to find the wedding, assuming that they did marry. Or else find Elizabeth/Gertrude POUT/PONT in an earlier census.
Attachments
1861 Birth Cert.jpg
1861 Birth Cert.jpg (837 KiB) Viewed 1749 times
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Re: East Indian Company Pensioner

Postby ianbee » Fri Aug 26, 2016 11:15 am

Looks like Pont to me.
Going back to Adrian's 1881 Daniels find, on which head of household Gustav's wife does resemble the Daniels daughter in Hackney in 1861.
Birth,
Sep 1870 Marylebone 1a 446
Mentzel, Bertha Ahmahlie

Marriage
June 1870 Pancras 1b 234a
Mentzel, Gustuv (or Gustus) Richard
married ?

Looking at the image his name has been handwritten, it's added at the bottom of the page. Hence the "a" number, I guess, being a late addition. I don't think any spouse's name has been transcribed. Either it wasn't added, or has been missed.

However, on 235 -
June 1870 Pancras 1b 235
Grassman, Karolina Marian
Hentyel, Gustav Richard

The birth of the daughter Adelaide in America has been indexed on Family Search.
New York, New York City Births
Amanda Aadlheide Mentzel
Date: 30 Dec 1875
Place: Manhattan, New York,
Gender: Female
Father's Name: Richard Gustav Mentzel
Mother's Name: Caroline Marie ...Asmann

That last name for the mother, which they obviously couldn't read too well, should be her maiden name (judging on other entries)
Perhaps then it said Grasmann, or similar?

There is this birth or baptism indexed on FS, just in case there is still a possible connection.
Gerdrut Grosmann
birth: 8 January 1820
Mintard, Rheinland, Prussia
mother: Carolina Grosmann
Germany Births and Baptisms, 1558-1898
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Re: East Indian Company Pensioner

Postby AdrianB38 » Fri Aug 26, 2016 2:56 pm

It's got me beat....

To summarise what I think:
The 1861, 1871, 1881 and 1891 censuses in Hackney show
John Daniel(s) b1814-16, Edmonton, labourer and EIC pensioner (1861) / Artillery Pensioner (1871) / Army Pensioner (1891 - not Chelsea Pensioner, note)

His wife
Gertrude aka Elizabeth aka Gertrude Elizabeth, b1819-21, Germany, British subject.

The only one of their children that I can trace outside the 1861 census is George William Daniels (whose 1861 b/c is above) - that's the exact correct address, and shows his mother's maiden name as Pont / Pout The other children appear only in the 1861 census - the eldest daughter is also b Germany.

There is also an 1881 Marylebone census for the Mentzel household including a
John Daniels b1810-11 London, French Polisher
Gertrude Daniels b1819-20, Bavaria (it's peculiar but it's the same as Frau Mentzel and if you go thru to the 1911 Mentzel household you see the name clearly written as Bavaria (or Bayern - forgotten which)
I cannot trace these 2 Daniel(s) in any other census.

So let's say that's 2 JDs, each of whom happens to have a wife named Gertrude b abt 1820 in Germany.

Sitting in the middle we have the 1855 EIC Pension for
John Daniel b1815/16 Edmonton, ex gunner Bengal Artillery. Every single one of those values matches the Hackney JD. He is also to reside Tottenham - about which I cannot comment. And he is a French Polisher, which matches the 1881 Marylebone guy.

There is also the 1857 marriage in Hackney of
John Daniels, full age, widower, French Polisher and Elizabeth Rhodes, full age, spinster. Rhodes cannot match the Hackney JD whose wife is a Pont / Pout. French Polisher matches that pensioner.

So much of the EIC Pension matches the Hackney JD that I find it difficult to imagine it's not him. But then that makes the Hackney JD a French Polisher (or maybe ex-French Polisher). And then the 1857 marriage looks so close by reason of that occupation - but it's the wrong surname.

We are of course assuming that people are telling the truth. Though I can find no serious issue to suggest that they aren't...
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Re: East Indian Company Pensioner

Postby SDV » Fri Aug 26, 2016 3:41 pm

I agree that it is to say the least puzzling, just as you think you are making progress a spanner is thrown in the works.

For me the way forward is finding mentions of them pre-1861. The marriage would be a wonderful find, as would a Pont/Pout in an earlier census.

Of course, given the German connection, we cannot afford to ignore continental records. An awful lot of Germans fled the German area in the 1840s-1860s for political reasons, not least Karl Marx.
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Re: East Indian Company Pensioner

Postby SDV » Mon Oct 03, 2016 10:04 am

A little more information to add to the pot.

This morning I received the death certificates of John Daniels and his wife Gertrude Elizabeth.

John died on 26 Dec 1902, at 20 Margaret Street, Hackney, aged 87. Occupation given as "gardener domestic". Informant E LOFTHOUSE (granddaughter) of 27 Margaret Street.

Gertrude Elizabeth died on 21 Feb 1903, also at 20 Margaret Street, aged 82. Described as widow of John DANIEL, gardener (domestic). Informant Elizabeth LOFTHOUSE (granddaughter) of 20 Margaret Street.

20 Margaret Street was the address for the couple in both 1891 and 1901. So the right couple.

Does this help?
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Re: East Indian Company Pensioner

Postby SDV » Tue Jan 10, 2017 6:12 pm

This remains unresolved and as confusing as ever.

I have tried some new approaches:

(1) the John DANIEL who marries Elizabeth Rhodes is classified as a widow, so I have been trying to find an earlier marriage, so far without success.

(2) it would appear that the second family in 1881 is not MONTYEI but MENTZEL, though this doesn't open any magic doors.

(3) I have also been looking at John and Gertrude/Elizabeth's children. Some possibles:

(i) Emma DANIELS (MMN Titmarsh) - Q2 1854 Hackney 1b 290
(iI) Emma Elizabeth DANIELS (MMN Titmouse) - Q1 1857 Hackney 1b 307
(iii) Sarah DANIEL (MMN Ponte) - Q2 1859 Hackney 1b 299
(iv) George William DANIELS (MMN Pont) - Q2 1861 Hackney 1b 346

The fourth one we already knew, but I think the third one looks promising for the Sarah mentioned in the 1861C. I also wondered about the second one for the Elizabeth on the 1861C, though the different MMN is a problem, as is the earlier find with the very similar MMN.

I would welcome any new thoughts on this problem.
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Re: East Indian Company Pensioner

Postby ianbee » Tue Jan 10, 2017 7:14 pm

Perhaps the Rhodes marriage wasn't relevant after all. Promising though it looked.
I don't think the Mentzel connection is dead yet though, looking at the births of the children.
A change in the mother's maiden surname! The name on the first birth in London in 1870 matches the 1875 New York one, but then...
Births
Sep 1870 Marylebone 1a 446
Mentzel, Bertha Ahmahlie
mother's maiden surname Grasman

March 1879 Marylebone 1a 537
Mentzel, Mena Augusta
mother's maiden surname Daniels
(death registered same quarter)

Sep 1886 Marylebone 1a 533
Mentzel, Lillie Augusta
mother Daniels

June 1888 Marylebone 1a 532
Mentzel, Letitia Clara
mother Daniels

Dec 1892 Marylebone 1a 488
Mentzel, Evelina Florence
mother Daniels
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Re: East Indian Company Pensioner

Postby AdrianB38 » Tue Jan 10, 2017 7:43 pm

Well fancy that.... Or am I getting over excited?

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