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East Indian Company Pensioner

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Re: East Indian Company Pensioner

Postby AdrianB38 » Fri Aug 05, 2016 8:36 pm

MoVidger wrote:... Based on the various census records, I wouldn't classify him as an "East Indian Company Pensioner", unless his military records prove otherwise.


I would have to say that the 1861 seems to say that's what he is - it's hard to be certain, but I think it says "Labourer Pen E I Com'y"

The "P" is hard to read but further down the page there's "Porter in Warehouse" that uses (or misuses) the same "P".

There are several "E" letters and an "I" in "Ironer" a few lines below.

Now whether it makes sense or not is another matter!
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Re: East Indian Company Pensioner

Postby AdrianB38 » Fri Aug 05, 2016 9:17 pm

I think I may have found the guy from the censuses in the EIC Pensions data on FMP.

Go to British India Office Army & Navy Pensions and search for "John Daniels" with variations on both names. Purely by luck, this appears 2nd on the list (well, on my list!)

Lord Clive Military Fund Pension Registers and Payment Books Transcription
First Name John
Last Name Daniel
Year -
Age 39
Presidency Madras
Place Of Birth Town Edmonton
Place Of Birth County Middlesex
Place Of Birth Country England
Year Of Death -
Date Of Death -
Place Of Death Country -
Place Of Death County -
PlaceOfDeathTown -
Archive Reference L-AG-23-2-66
Catalogue Description Lord Clive Military Fund Pension Registers & Payment Books - admissions in UK
Record set British India Office Army & Navy pensions
Category Military, armed forces & conflict
Subcategory Regimental & service records
Collections from Great Britain

Note that the Lord Clive Fund, if I have it right, was the fund used to pay EIC Army Pensioners in the UK. (Not sure if that means it was only used in the UK or not...)

As for this guy matching the census:

  • He was a Gunner in the Artillery (4 Company, 6 Battalion? Bengal Artillery, I think)
  • He's admitted to Pension 19 Sept 1855
  • He's a French Polisher (as per the 1881 census)
  • He's been in the EIC Army for 17y 2m (i.e. joined about July 1838)
  • He's born Edmonton (as per the 1871 census)

He's going to reside in Tottenham. Not sure if that matches his censuses or not, and in any case he could move.

How does this line up with a wife and child born in Germany? Blowed if I know - since she was a British subject, her own parents might have been British Army. Still can't envisage how it all fits together though unless JD doesn't have any connection himself to Germany.
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Re: East Indian Company Pensioner

Postby AdrianB38 » Fri Aug 05, 2016 9:40 pm

Assuming that your John is the one baptised at All Saints, Edmonton on 24 Dec 1815, then his parents are William & Rebecca (please tell me if I'm off-beam).

In which case the marriage at St John, Hackney, on 19 January 1857, of John Daniels (widower), who is a French polisher, with a father of William (labourer), may be of interest - his wife is Elizabeth Rhodes, a spinster, father is Edward Rhodes (labourer).

(Stuff is on Ancestry...)

Now how this links to Germany and the eldest child, I leave to you!
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Re: East Indian Company Pensioner

Postby Sylcec » Sat Aug 06, 2016 2:57 am

Adrian's done some great work here - your chat with my pals from FIBIS at the last WDYTYA was obviously of benefit!!! :D
Actually I noticed in the last post that there is conflicting information as to whether John was in the Bengal Artillery or Madras Artillery. However, based on the Lord Clive Fund entry, it should be Madras.
I think the next and most useful step would be to have a look at John's entry in the Register of European Soldiers' Service. (As he joined in 1839 you will find this in L/MIL/11/101 at the BL, or use an LDS microfilm number 1885890.) see below
EDIT:
I have now checked the record referred to by Adrian - it took some finding on FMP! The actual record does indeed mention 4 Company, 6th Battalion, Artillery in Bengal for John Daniel's service. So, there is obviously an indexing error by FMP. The Soldiers service register for a man who attested to the BENGAL service in 1839 will be found at the BL on L/MIL/19/122, or on LDS film no. 1867444.
I note that the reason for his discharge and getting a Lord Clive Pension was Chronic Rheumatism and Deformity of Right Hand.

This record will give you the name of the ship on which he travelled to India and other info.
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Re: East Indian Company Pensioner

Postby AdrianB38 » Sat Aug 06, 2016 6:25 am

Thanks Sylvia - the Baxter's Guide (purchased to help me chase down an infuriatingly interesting not quite relative of a relative) was the important bit. Finding the collection is, as you say, a pain. It's one of those where the catalogue description ("Lord Clive...") of the record isn't the same as the collection name.

Glad you could confirm that the service record should exist and where.

This guy is such an interesting case - we still have no real idea about the German connection, beyond the assumption that it might be British Army. And we have the marriage record that suggests he was a widower. I say suggests because of the eldest daughter - there must be a chance that he's claimed to be a widower to suggest that the eldest daughter is his and not his wife's illegitimate daughter.

Sent from my MotoG3 using WDYTYA Forum mobile app
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Re: East Indian Company Pensioner

Postby SDV » Sun Aug 07, 2016 11:28 am

Hi

I'm just catching up with developments, having been out of town yesterday. The record find on FMP seems a real breakthrough. I like the reference to Edmonton as place of birth, as this is definitely correct. The John I am interested in was the son of William and Rebecca, born in Edmonton.

I'm puzzled by the French Polisher reference, as I can find nothing in the censuses to indicate this was his trade. Indeed, if he had a dodgy right hand, I would have thought this would have been a difficult trade for him. All the references I have found have him as a labourer/pensioner. The only French Polisher reference I can find is on the wedding certificate in a later post.

The wedding could well be right. His father was William Daniel(s), who was a labourer. And he did have a brother called Thomas, who might be the witness.

I have ordered the birth certificate of their first child, so this should give me Elizabeth's unmarried name.

Obviously still work to do in proving that the two John Daniels are one and the same, but definite progress.

I appeal to those of you, who obviously have greater expertise than me, to press on. I am very grateful for your help.
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Re: East Indian Company Pensioner

Postby AdrianB38 » Sun Aug 07, 2016 1:17 pm

SDV wrote:... I'm puzzled by the French Polisher reference, as I can find nothing in the censuses to indicate this was his trade. Indeed, if he had a dodgy right hand, I would have thought this would have been a difficult trade for him. ...


Re the trade - my thought also but I'm uncertain how much dexterity is needed beyond holding a cloth.

I told you this case was weird... There appear to be two appearances for John and his wife in the 1881. I didn't realise that before today.

Name: Gertrude Daniels
Age: 61
Estimated birth year: abt 1820
Relationship to Head: Boarder
Gender: Female
Where born: Baueryon (F), Preußen <<<=== NB I have no idea where this idea. "Baueryon" sounds more like "Bayern", i.e. Bavaria, but that's not in Prussia!
Civil Parish: Marlebone
County/Island: London
Country: England
Street address: 82 Bolsover St
Marital Status: Married
Registration district: Marylebone
ED, institution, or vessel: 13a
Neighbors: View others on page
Piece: 136
Folio: 114
Page Number: 36 <<<=== They are actually over the page on p.37
Household Members:
Name Age
Gustav R. Montyel 36
Mary C. Montyel 31
Bertha A. Montyel 10
Adelaide Montyel 5
Gustau R. Montyel 72
Amelia Montyel 62
Gertrude Daniels 61
John Daniels 70

Class: RG11; Piece: 136; Folio: 114; Page: 36; (actually p.37)

This is the one with a French Polisher occupation and the one I'd found previously.


Then there is this one:
Name: Elizabeth Daniels
Age: 61
Estimated birth year: abt 1820
Relationship to Head: Wife
Spouse: John Daniels
Gender: Female
Where born: (British Subject), Germany
Civil Parish: Hackney
County/Island: London
Country: England
Street address: 3 Evelyn Cottages
Marital Status: Married
Registration district: Hackney
Sub registration district: West Hackney
ED, institution, or vessel: 39a
Neighbors: View others on page
Piece: 308
Folio: 75
Page Number: 45
Household Members:
Name Age
John Daniels 66
Elizabeth Daniels 61
Class: RG11; Piece: 308; Folio: 75; Page: 45;

This is the labourer. And yes, the age of John is a bit wonky on my Marylebone example.

So either we have a John Daniels married to an Elizabeth, b abt 1820 in Germany, and a John Daniels married to a Gertrude, b abt 1820 in Germany
or
we have a John Daniels married to a Gertrude Elizabeth, b abt 1820 in Germany.

I thought it was mentioned earlier that you'd decided that she was Gertrude Elizabeth from her 1903 death???? Is there any explicit note of her name being both those?

The 1861 has Gertrude in Hackney; the 1871 has Elizabeth in Hackney; the 1881 has Elizabeth in Hackney and Gertrude in Marylebone; the 1891 has Elizabeth in Hackney. It seems to me very unlikely that Gertrude and Elizabeth are two separate people? Especially as 1881 Gertrude's husband is the French Polisher but the 1857 marriage is to Elizabeth.... But....

Best wait for that birth certificate, I think.
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Re: East Indian Company Pensioner

Postby SDV » Sun Aug 07, 2016 2:11 pm

Wow! I'm rather inclined to agree. Hopefully the birth certificate will help with matters.

John Daniel (87) dies in Hackney in 1902 [Q4 1902 Hackney 1b 373]. And Gertrude Elizabeth Daniel (82) dies in Hackney in 1903 [Q1 1903 Hackney 1b 357]. The location and respective ages are just about right. Obviously, only by obtaining the actual certificates will it be possible to be certain.

Could Mary C Montyei (30), born 1850, be John and Gertrude's first daughter, who according to the 1861 census was born in Germany in 1850?

I'm not expert enough to know if people were double counted. The description "boarder" doesn't sound like someone visiting for the night. To my eye, the 3 Evelyn Cottages seems more consistent. But who knows.
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Re: East Indian Company Pensioner

Postby AdrianB38 » Sun Aug 07, 2016 3:27 pm

SDV wrote:... John Daniel (87) dies in Hackney in 1902 [Q4 1902 Hackney 1b 373]. And Gertrude Elizabeth Daniel (82) dies in Hackney in 1903 [Q1 1903 Hackney 1b 357]
....

OK - so I see now that the registration on FreeBMD does indeed refer to her as "Gertrude Elizabeth", so we do have someone with two names. So the two names could definitely refer to one person.

SDV wrote:... Could Mary C Montyei (30), born 1850, be John and Gertrude's first daughter, who according to the 1861 census was born in Germany in 1850?
...

Oh good thought that... Especially since she and Gertrude are both born at that odd looking place.

SDV wrote:... I'm not expert enough to know if people were double counted ...

It happens. Not very often. Usually when people are moving during the day or night. Strictly speaking there are instructions about how to handle it, but it's a bit tricky to know whether you were counted at the previous site or not... It could be that they'd gone up to see Mary on the night of the census, come back late that night or early the next day, filled their own census form in and given it to the enumerator. But also Mary and her family fill their own form in - "Your parents were here that night... Do they count?", "Well, it was Sunday night they were here so best put them in...." Or even fill it in while they genuinely were there, but John and Gertrude Elizabeth don't realise or don't think it counts, because they've got their own form to complete.

Anyway - recipe for confusion.

As for using the term "boarder" - no, strictly that isn't used for family members, who ought to be "mother-in-law" or whatever, if resident, or "visitor"(?) if not. But note that Gustav the elder is also recorded as a boarder - 10 to 1 he's the younger Gustav's father. Or uncle. So the term appears to be being misused anyway.
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Re: East Indian Company Pensioner

Postby SDV » Thu Aug 25, 2016 4:27 pm

Hi

Now back from a trip, to find the birth certificate of George William DANIELS waiting on the door mat. George was born 02 Apr 1861 at Abbott Street, Hackney. His father was John DANIELS, a gardener labourer. His mother was Gertrude DANIELS, formerly POUT or PONT. The family lived at 9 Abbotts Street, Kingsland.

A quick search of FreeBMD has not yet revealed a marriage.

Any ideas?
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