Moderator Control Panel ]

Robert Wilson died Holme's Lane, Litherland Aug. 1878.

A problem shared is a problem halved. Post your brick walls here and see whether you can offer advice to others

Robert Wilson died Holme's Lane, Litherland Aug. 1878.

Postby doddie » Fri Jun 10, 2016 9:20 am

I need some help to provide some clarity. My g. g. grandfather Robert Wilson (or sometimes James Wilson) was born in the Seaforth area of Liverpool in 1845. After much searching I obtained a birth certificate for a Robert Wilson born in the Litherland district. His father was Robert Wilson and his mother Mary Smitton. The three of them appear in the 1861 census but I cannot find them in 1851. Also, I have been unable to find any evidence of a marriage. The only marriage for a Mary Smitton I have been able to find is in 1845 to a George Hubbard. This Mary died in 1846. As a result of these 'missing' details I have some general misgivings about whether the birth certificate I have does actually relate to my g. g. grandfather. I decided to try and follow the timelines for Robert Snr. and Mary to see if this would shed any light on the matter. My investigations revealed this from the Liverpool Mercury 7th November, Deaths - '1864 'WILSON - Nov 3, at Litherland, aged 48, Mary, wife of Mr. Robert Wilson and youngest daughter of the late Mr. James Smitton, Stonemason of this town'. Later I came across this in the Liverpool Echo 5th August 1878, Deaths – 'Aug 3, at Seaforth, aged 74, Robert Wilson, father of Matthew Wilson, Whitechapel'. Robert was living with a family called Coffey along Holmes Lane, Litherland when he died and an Emma Coffey was the informant. I then managed with a lot of help from someone to find the burial plot for Robert and Mary, the inscription on the head stone exactly matching the dates form both newspapers. The only fly in the ointment is the mention of Matthew, the son of Robert. I was, until reading his name, totally unaware of his existence. As far as I have been able to establish the Robert mentioned in the birth certificate of 1845 seems to have been an only child. I would appreciate any feedback.

Regards

Doddie
doddie
 
Posts: 60
Joined: Sat Feb 12, 2011 11:18 am

Re: Robert Wilson died Holme's Lane, Litherland Aug. 1878.

Postby ciderdrinker » Fri Jun 10, 2016 12:05 pm

Hi
I looked for both Robert Wilson senior and Mary Smitton.

Robert Wilson baptised 12.4.1805 born 26.6.1804 Overton Lancs s of Daniel and Ruth Wilson of Overton taylor
Siblings Matthew 23.12.1798 and Bellow 27.12.1801

Mary Smitton born 29.11.1817 d of James Smitton and Martha nee Bramwell Stone mason of Whitby Locke baptised in a group with siblings at Stoke Cheshire 13.8.1820
Others George born 17.9.1815
James 20.7.1813
Thomas 21.2.1820
Before that John and Ann 8.10.1807 and Robert 29.1.1809 at St Peter's Liverpool
Marriage at Holy Trinity Chester 20.10.1806.

In 1841 the Smitton family are in Sefton Litherland
James 50 stone mason N
Martha 60 N
Thomas 20 N
Mary 20 N

I can't find Mary in 1851 but that 1845 marriage to George Hubbard has a father Robert so not her.
Given the age gap I'd assume they weren't married because Robert being older was already married.
It's quite possible that Matthew was from this earlier marriage and Robert/James's half brother.

The Mathew Wilson I can see at Whitechapel in 1861 is this
Mathew Wilson 34 ironmoger Lancaster(latter censuses give Heysham).
Anne 34 Liverpool
Mary Dorothy 7
Isabella 5
Elizabeth 3 1/2
Jane 1 1/2

A baptism at Heysham to Robert and Mary 28.10.1827 born 26 Sep from Dalton nr Burton groom would fit.
Obviously this mother Mary can't be Mary Smitton as she would be 10.
There's a marriage at Heysham 26.6.1827
Robert Wilson of Dalton in Burton Kendal and Mary Proctor of this parish by licence with consent of Mary's father.
They don't seem to have any other children in the parish
I can't see Mathew before 1861,not a marriage that fits nowt.
A mystery-where are the Wilsons 1841 and 1851?

Ciderdrinker
Last edited by ciderdrinker on Fri Jun 10, 2016 12:48 pm, edited 2 times in total.
ciderdrinker
 
Posts: 546
Joined: Fri Feb 03, 2012 12:17 pm

Re: Robert Wilson died Holme's Lane, Litherland Aug. 1878.

Postby ciderdrinker » Fri Jun 10, 2016 12:13 pm

Ps there's sister's for Matthew at Burton in Kendal
Dorothy 25.4.1830
Isabella 19.7.1835
and brother
Robert 13.1.1833-19.4.1836

1841 Sunderland Overton
Isabella Wilson 35 grocer y
Daniel 65 Ind y
Dorothy 10 y
Isabella 5 y
John Curry 7 y

So I'd assume Daniel who was buried at St Mary Lancaster age 73 28.1.1848 was grandad.
ps Robert Wilson age 40 is working as a MS in Sephton Litherland in 1841,still can't find Matthew born 1827.
1851 Dorothy is a servant in Heysham and Isabella is with grandparents Joseph and Dorothy age 67 and 60 farmer of 30 acres.No sign of Mary Procter.

It does all seem to fit together.I think you have your man but where is that 1851 census?

Ciderdrinker
ciderdrinker
 
Posts: 546
Joined: Fri Feb 03, 2012 12:17 pm

Re: Robert Wilson died Holme's Lane, Litherland Aug. 1878.

Postby doddie » Sat Jun 11, 2016 9:38 am

ciderdrinker, what can I say? Absolutely gobsmacked at what you have managed to uncover. Very grateful indeed. The fact that Robert senior had a previous marriage is a relief. If Matthew was the son of that marriage it means that Robert Snr. could still be the father of my g.g. grandfather Robert. The clinching thing would be to find the elusive 1851 cenus entry. One connection that I forgot to mention in my original post is that in 1861 Robert Snr. is a 'coachman'. When my g.g. grandfather was married in 1866 his father is described as 'Robert Wilson, groom'. I know that occupations can be described very generally in civic documentation but at least there is a horse connection. I will continue to bash on especially in the light of the information you have kindly provided.

Regards

Doddie
doddie
 
Posts: 60
Joined: Sat Feb 12, 2011 11:18 am

Re: Robert Wilson died Holme's Lane, Litherland Aug. 1878.

Postby ciderdrinker » Sat Jun 11, 2016 10:01 am

Good Morning
You may be happy to hear that on Dorothy Wilson's marriage ST Peter's Liverpool Robert Wilson is described as a coachman.
William Clark mariner Kent St married Dorothy Wilson d of Robert Wilson coachman 24.9.1861

1871 Hampton St Toxteth Prk
William Clark 34 railway porter Dumfries
Dorothy 39 Burton Westmoreland
Mary 8 Liverpool
Robert 2
infant daughter 1 mth.

So Robert in 1827 goes from groom to coachman in 1861 .

Ciderdrinker
ciderdrinker
 
Posts: 546
Joined: Fri Feb 03, 2012 12:17 pm

Re: Robert Wilson died Holme's Lane, Litherland Aug. 1878.

Postby doddie » Mon Jun 13, 2016 3:48 pm

It gets more interesting as the gaps are filled. I came across the marriage certificate for Matthew Wilson. Dec.1851, He is an ironmonger, Wife Ann Sherry, father Robert Wilson, a gardener. This begins to fall into place. On my g.g. grandfather's 'probable' birth certificate his father Robert is listed as a gardener. If I have got the picture right Robert Snr.'s CV for his later years is as follows: 1845 Gardener( as per Robert Jnr.'s birth certificate) 1851 Gardener (as per Matthew's marriage certificate), 1861 Coachman (as per Dorothy's marriage certificate & the Wilson family census entry for Sefton Road, Litherland) and 1866 Groom (as per Robert Jnr.'s marriage certificate). I am quietly confident that the 1845 birth certificate and the 1861 Wilson family census entry relate to the same family group, it is other issues that cause m some doubt. It does strike me for instance that going from a gardener to a coachman/groom is quite a career change. This apart, ciderdrinker, as things stand do you think Robert Snr. is the correct father of my g.g. grandfather? I will continue to dig away.

Regards

Doddie
doddie
 
Posts: 60
Joined: Sat Feb 12, 2011 11:18 am

Re: Robert Wilson died Holme's Lane, Litherland Aug. 1878.

Postby doddie » Tue Jun 14, 2016 1:06 pm

Hi ciderdrinker, have been looking on Ancestry for marriage of Dorothy in 1861 under the 'Liverpool Marriages and Banns, 1813-1921' section. This is the section under which I found the marriage of Matthew in 1851. The only refrence to Dorothy's marriage I can find is the one for standard marriage index, 1837-1915 which obviously doesn't give any family details. Where did you come across the marriage?

Regards

Doddie
doddie
 
Posts: 60
Joined: Sat Feb 12, 2011 11:18 am

Re: Robert Wilson died Holme's Lane, Litherland Aug. 1878.

Postby ciderdrinker » Wed Jun 15, 2016 9:23 am

Good Question
The basic details are on Familysearch but the full transcription is on Lancashire on line parish clerks.
http://www.lan-opc.org.uk/Search/indexp.html

Not sure why it's not on Ancestry

Ciderdrinker
ciderdrinker
 
Posts: 546
Joined: Fri Feb 03, 2012 12:17 pm

Re: Robert Wilson died Holme's Lane, Litherland Aug. 1878.

Postby doddie » Fri Jun 24, 2016 11:19 am

Some progress! I have managed to find a birth record for Mary Procter. Born Preston-Patrick, Westmorland 2 September 1809. Parents 'Joseph Procter and Dorothy'. In the 1851 census Isabella Wilson was living in Heysham, Lancashire with her maternal grandparents Joseph and Dorothy Procter. A bit of drawn out detective work has since calculated that Dorothy's maiden name was either Haskel or Roskel (writing ambiguous). Joseph and Dorothy were married in Cockerham, Lancashire, 22 October 1804. In 1805 they had a daughter Betty. A Betty Procter is one of the witnesses at the marriage of Robert Wilson and Mary Procter, so presumably they were sisters. Hopefully getting there slowly but surely.

Regards

Doddie
doddie
 
Posts: 60
Joined: Sat Feb 12, 2011 11:18 am

Re: Robert Wilson died Holme's Lane, Litherland Aug. 1878.

Postby doddie » Fri Aug 19, 2016 2:54 pm

Just been informed about new details r.e. Mary Wilson. She died in Dalton (on the outskirts of Burton-in Kendal) 30 May 1836. So Robert would have been a widow at time of 1841 census. Hoping this will help me find him in 1841 census.

Regards

Doddie
doddie
 
Posts: 60
Joined: Sat Feb 12, 2011 11:18 am

Next

Return to General research queries


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Bing [Bot] and 8 guests