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Frederick Adam Schmidt born 1873-1874 London?

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Frederick Adam Schmidt born 1873-1874 London?

Postby MaureenE » Thu Mar 31, 2016 1:21 am

My grandfather was supposedly born in London in 1873 or 1874, but I have been unable to confirm this. I am seeking any records which may help me, or advice regarding other possible sources of records.

I have not been able to locate his birth registration, or locate him in a suitable family in the 1881 or 1891 Census, despite quite a lot of research over the years. From family documents, I know he would not appear in the 1901 Census as he was was in India, with the British Army. Some possibilities I have discarded as I have located the person in the 1901 census, so I know they could not be my grandfather.

Family members visiting the UK in the 1970s-1980s, were unsuccessful in finding out any information. (I live in Australia).

I will set out what information I have, even though this will make the post fairly long.

His name was Frederick Adam Schmidt. He sometimes used the first name Adam. My grandmother (no longer alive) advised that he was born 12 December 1873 or 1874, so presumably my grandfather did not know his exact date of birth, perhaps suggesting other details relating to his birth may be incorrect also. Family lore is that Frederick’s father was born in Germany and his mother was English.

His religion, according to “The Small Book” , an Army document held by the family, completed c 1903 in India, was “Other Protestant” (ie not Church of England, Presbyterian, Wesleyan and also not Roman Catholic or Jew), so possibly Lutheran given his German background.

He joined the British Army in 1893, and I have information after this date about him. He subsequently was also in the Australian Army, fighting at both Gallipoli and the Western Front. However, even when fighting against the Germans, he kept his German surname.

His British Army application indicated he was born in St Georges East, London while the Australian Army records state he born in Charlden, London, (possibly Charlton, near Greenwich}. He was a baker. A number of years ago I contacted the Register Offices in Towers Hamlet and Greenwich who couldn’t find anything , even under a different name, for 1873-1874. Tower Hamlets also have some Lutheran Church registers, but couldn’t find anything which seemed to be relevant for the name Schmidt.

His father was stated to be John George Schmidt, also a baker.
I have located in the Censuses two John Schmidts , baker in London and a John Schmidt in Hulme , a district of Manchester , registration district Cholton, whose occupation was initially given as confectioner and then pastry cook, who could be possibilities.

Regarding the latter, in the 1881 census (Hulme)John Schmidt and his wife Jane (born in Ireland) had a son Fredrich aged 4 (ie born 1876/1877). However I cannot locate a birth certificate, or mention of this family in the 1891 census.

One of the London John Schmidts was living in Paddington. The only possible connection I could find was that three of the male children had names starting with A , which might tie in with my grandfather’s middle name Adam. I could not locate the date of his marriage to his wife Louisa but he had several children, the earliest born about 1878. Could Frederick have been born from a previous marriage of (Paddington)John Schmidt and brought up by someone else such as a grandmother or other relative under a different surname?

The other John Schmidt, baker lived in West Ham just to the east of London. From his 1888 naturalisation file at the National Archives which I obtained, he arrived in England in 1860, was married in 1870 to Lisette Pfersdorff (?) from Germany and had a daughter Friederike born 3 July 1872. His wife died in 1876, and he remarried, an Englishwoman, and had another daughter. The is no mention in the file of Frederick Adam, only his two daughters. This John Schmidt did have a nephew Johann Friedrich called Frederick in the 1881 census born 1 September 1868 at Mile End Old Town, but the difference in birth dates does make me think the nephew is not Frederick Adam.

One piece of information I have been able to investigate concerns the surname Schmeising.
According to family oral history, John George Schmidt’s sister Alice married a Schmeising .
According to the army booklet “The Small Book”, in family possession,: Next of kin after wife: Father (no name specified) and sister May Schmeising , both of 20 Golborne Gardens Westborne Park, London. Last permanent residence: Golborne Gardens, Westborne Park.

The 1901 census shows the occupants of 20 Golborne Gardens Kensington as Daniel Schmeising age 30 born in Germany (foreign subject) , baker breadmaker and his wife Mary age 26. They were married 6 October 1895 in Islington. Daniel’s father was given as Urban Schmeising , Farmer. Mary was born Mary Harriet Mills on 26 January 1875 in Holborn, father Samuel Mills House Painter.

Although Frederick Adam advised Mary was his sister this does not seem correct (1881 census did not show a Frederick in the Mills household). It is possible though that Daniel Schmeising is Frederick’s cousin.

In the 1901 census there is also the family of Friedrich Schmeising, age 35 baker. Daniel and Friedrich are not brothers, as I have established their fathers’ names are different, but they are most likely cousins as there are names that are found in both families. The 1891 census shows that Friedrich Schmeising was born in Gutensburg.

However, in the 1911 census I cannot find Daniel Schmeising or 20 Golborne Gardens or indeed anyone in Golborne Gardens , using findmypast. I have seen maps past this date and Golborne Gardens was still in existence until c 1960s-1970s when demolished to build large towers. Is this data missing from the 1911 census, or is it just that I can’t find it.

Any help would be much appreciated.

Cheers
Maureen
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Re: Frederick Adam Schmidt born 1873-1874 London?

Postby sdup26 » Thu Mar 31, 2016 3:26 pm

Army papers show 'Frederick Adam' Schmidt, then refer to him as Adam throughout, until the final page, when he's Frederick Adam again. (Trade: baker, enlisted Woolwich 1893, discharged in Bombay at his own request after 18 years service, intended place of residence, Melbourne, Australia) He gives his year and place of birth as 1875, Holborn, London. There's a birth entry for a Frederick Schmidt JQ 1875, Holborn, 1b 746, but as Frederick seems a bit vague about his exact place of birth, this may be a red herring.

In his Army papers, his father is named as what looks like 'Orpan' Schmidt, 50 Nelson St, Commercial Road, London, but there's a thick inkline through it, so I may have misread it.

Is this the same man? From British India Office Marriages: Frederick Adam Schmidt married Edith Flatman 11/2/1903 in Meerut, Bengal, and his father's name is shown as John George Schmidt.
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Re: Frederick Adam Schmidt born 1873-1874 London?

Postby sdup26 » Thu Mar 31, 2016 4:26 pm

Like you, I can't find Daniel Schmeising and wife Mary in 1911, but they're on the 1939 Index living in Potters Bar, Middlesex. Daniel b1870, retired grocer (have you tried trade directories around 1911 for him?) Mary b1875, and Daniel W Schmeising b14/1/1901, an engineer aircraft tool maker, married.
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Re: Frederick Adam Schmidt born 1873-1874 London?

Postby ksouthall » Thu Mar 31, 2016 5:46 pm

There are two marriages for Frederick Adam Schmidt in India. Both are for the same man as the Frederick who married Edith Flatman was a widower when he married. His first wife is named as Victoria Eleanor Lenehan on his army discharge record. They were married on 2nd April 1901 in Peshawar. Victoria died of phthisis (TB) on 20th February 1902. It may be worth obtaining a copy of the first marriage certificate if you don't already have it, just to confirm his father's name which may sound silly but it is possible he was illegitimate so made up a name for his father. Often, people changed their story over time so, if his father is John George, occupation baker, on both marriage entries then it is more likely to be true.

Details below:-

First name(s) FREDERICK ADAM
Last name SCHMIDT
Marriage year 1901
Marriage place PESHAWAR
Country INDIA
Spouse's first name(s) -
Spouse's last name -
Page 76
Line number 127
Record source GRO Index Army Marriages (1881 to 1955)
Record set British nationals armed forces marriages 1796-2005

First name(s) FREDERICK ADAM
Last name SCHMIDT
Marriage year 1903
Marriage place MEERUT
Country INDIA
Spouse's first name(s) -
Spouse's last name -
Page 118
Line number 126
Record source GRO Index Army Marriages (1881 to 1955)
Record set British nationals armed forces marriages 1796-2005

A copy of the record details is available for the second marriage on FindMyPast.

The marriage in 1903 matches the army discharge record as, at the 1903 marriage he was in the 24th Battalion of the RFA and later transferred to the 62nd battalion in 1907.
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Re: Frederick Adam Schmidt born 1873-1874 London?

Postby MaureenE » Fri Apr 01, 2016 7:12 am

Thank you, sdup26 and ksouthall for your comments.

I was unaware of the 1913 discharge record on findmypast, as I had not thought to look in "British Army Service Records 1914-1920", as he was in the Australian Army during this period, so many thanks for pointing this out. It shows that records may not be where you think they will be. I was however aware that he had left the British Army in 1913, as he was recruited in India by the Australian Army as an instructor in the Australian Army.

Because I was not aware of the discharge record on findmypast, I have another avenue to investigate in censuses for his father, given as 'Orpan' Schmidt, 50 Nelson St, Commercial Road, London. Thank you.

The two marriages mentioned are for him. I obtained the marriage certificate for his first marriage, and his father is given as John George Schmidt.

A birth entry for a Frederick Schmidt JQ 1875, Holborn, 1b 746, is mentioned. I obtained a birth certificate for a birth in Holborn in 1875 which I think is probably this reference (although the certificate does not contain this reference), but it was not relevant.

Cheers
Maureen
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Re: Frederick Adam Schmidt born 1873-1874 London?

Postby MaureenE » Tue Mar 07, 2017 3:26 am

A cousin has located a record, submitted only a month ago, in the Genealogies section of FamilySearch which makes it extremely likely that Frederick Adam Schmidt, who was supposed to have been born in London, was born Adam Schmeissing, 6 December 1873 in "Dorla, Gudensberg Deutschland", father Urban Schmeissing.
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/2:2:38RB-1YP

Has anyone any suggestions about what the sources for this information given on the Familysearch record actually mean?
Under sources it states Neddermeyer Web Site, author Paul Neddermeyer. However nothing came up in a Google Search.

Under Notes (4) it states
AFGS 1 _UPD 01 MAY 2016 09:31:18 GMT+1
AFGS 2 RIN MH:SC552649
AFGS 2 PAGE Adam Schmeissing
Quoted text: Durch einen Smart Match hinzugefügt GOOGLE TRANSLATE Added by a SmartMatch

The only AFGS I can finds the American-French Genealogical Society which doesn't seem to fit in with Gudensberg in Hessen, Germany

And what does the reference to a SmartMatch actually mean? What is being matched to what, and how accurate is information likely to be, or is this record likely to be speculation?

At the top of the FamilySearch webpage it says "Stammbaum Familie Kessler und Sauer Stammbaum der Familie Sauer aus dem 19. Jahrhundert, sowie für Familie Keßler auch dem Familienbuch des Ortes Kirchberg/ Niedenstein Deutschland von Werner Guth vom Jahr 1350 bis zum Jahr 1900".

Google translate: Family Kessler and Sauer family tree of the Sauer family from the 19th century, as well as for the family Keßler also the family book of the place Kirchberg / Niedenstein Germany by Werner Guth from the year 1350 to the year 1900

I have located a catalogue reference to a book called
Einwohner- und Familienbuch Kirchberg, 1350 bis 1900: Mit Ortsadel Hund ab 1250 (Kirchberg in Niederhessen) by Werner Guth, Geschichts- u. Heimatverein Kirchberg, published 1996

Cheers
Maureen
MaureenE
 
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Re: Frederick Adam Schmidt born 1873-1874 London?

Postby AdrianB38 » Tue Mar 07, 2017 7:48 am

The AFGS lines appear to be fragments of a GEDCOM file - the header maybe. This may mean nothing more than that the data was loaded via such a file into Pedigree Resource File on Family Search. Though the contents of the text seem meaningful to someone.

Smart Match is a technology used by MyHeritage, though Google also mentioned it in connection with Wikitree and with Geni.com (the latter being linked to MH). It's a process where you have a tree on MH and the system identifies records in other peoples' trees. If you accept the Smart Match, you appear to get their data in your tree. I think. So someone accepted these Smart Matches into their MyHeritage tree, then produced a GEDCOM file to load into the Pedigree Resource File section of Family Search. I think.

Probably best if you do a bit more research into that!

The problem for you is that Smart Matching, like all hinting technology, is set a bit wide and relies on the recipient to really check that the hint refers to the same person. Some people do check. Others follow a "Computer says Yes" principle and accept everything because the machine cannot lie??? Whereas, the hinting might have speculated that a John Smith in London looked a bit like a Johann Schmidt in Berlin.... Sometimes he might indeed be an immigrant. Sometimes not.

I hope that this may leave you a bit better informed if no wiser.

Sent from my MotoG3 using WDYTYA Forum mobile app
Adrian
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Re: Frederick Adam Schmidt born 1873-1874 London?

Postby MaureenE » Tue Mar 07, 2017 8:57 am

Thanks Adrian for the information.

Cheers
Maureen
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Re: Frederick Adam Schmidt born 1873-1874 London?

Postby MaureenE » Tue Mar 07, 2017 12:35 pm

Could this read Adam?

Transcription from findmypast
First name(s) ?
Last name Schmeissing
Relationship Lodger
Marital status Single
Gender Male
Age 20
Birth year 1871
Occupation Baker
Birth town -
Birth county -
Birth place Germany
Birth place other as transcribed GERMANY
Street Briant Street
Town Greenwich
Parish St Paul Deptford
City -
County London
Registration district Greenwich
Archive reference RG12
Piece number 505
Folio 27
Page 48
Record set 1891 England, Wales & Scotland Census

Cheers
Maureen
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Re: Frederick Adam Schmidt born 1873-1874 London?

Postby AdrianB38 » Tue Mar 07, 2017 1:56 pm

I have to say that it doesn't look like "Adam" to me - Ancestry thinks it's "Wann" but I'm not sure that helps! Certainly the first bit looks like a "W" as per William etc on that page, but the whole thing is a muddle as if the enumerator couldn't read the schedules and made two attempts.

I don't know if you have access to Ancestry, but I think the Schmeissing family is in a tree on Ancestry. The contributor is a "Michael_Schmeising", the tree is NEW4-2013-07 and you may be able to locate it by searching for this chap:

Daniel SCHMEISSING
Birth 7 MAY 1870 • Gudensberg,Fritzlar,Hessen,GERMANY,
Death 12 OCT 1945 • 8 Clive Close, Potters Bar,Middlesex,UK,


Note that the guy does cite "Gudensberg records" as a source - albeit this is an offline source. (NB for anyone whose German is as ropey as mine, this is Gudensberg in Hesse, not Gutenberg elsewhere).

This guy also failed to locate Daniel in the 1911 - he gives an address with the comment not listed. Daniel's father is Urban in this tree and he has a sibling Adam but virtually no data for him. This family also has at least one other Schmeissing cousin that settled in the UK.

This may not help at all but just in case....
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