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KARGER ~ Prussia/Germany/Poland

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KARGER ~ Prussia/Germany/Poland

Postby ams007 » Mon Jul 20, 2015 4:16 pm

Hi all I've had problems with my ancestor Wilhelm (also known as William) Karger (Johann Friedrich Wilhelm Karger) born about 1828 not sure when exactly he passed away 23 November 1883 South Australia he was in a work accident he passed 10years after he and his wife and 3 children arrived in South Australia his eldest son died in 1877 I think it was he drowned himself a distant cousin of mine said Wilhelm's son of same name died on 23 November 1883 but found no mention anywhere on trove about his death so I think he must have read the paper wrong or something I always try checking before I add new info now. But anyway I looked on family search and it says Wilhelm was born in Poland but on his naturalisation records he states he's from Prussia and Germany I'm going to scan a few maps from 1870's and 1880's for Prussia/Germany/Poland I'll add more info from the naturalisation papers in the morning. It's been quite frustrating I do have a copy of the shipping records (which I've added) with Wilhelm and his wife and children on the Helene/Helena. Thank you in advance for anyone who's able to help me.


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Re: KARGER ~ Prussia/Germany/Poland

Postby AdrianB38 » Mon Jul 20, 2015 5:25 pm

I'd always trust what contemporary records say in preference to something written today - however you need to check what happened to the borders between when he was born and his naturalisation. It's always possible that his place of birth moved (not literally of course! )



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Last edited by AdrianB38 on Mon Jul 20, 2015 6:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: KARGER ~ Prussia/Germany/Poland

Postby AdrianB38 » Mon Jul 20, 2015 5:29 pm

In fact it's also possible that someone knows where he was born and has looked on today's maps to work out the country when entering the stuff into FamilySearch.

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Re: KARGER ~ Prussia/Germany/Poland

Postby Sylcec » Mon Jul 20, 2015 10:38 pm

The South Australian death index has 2 death for the time period of interest:
1874 59/343 KARGER Gottlob Barossa
1883 132/485 KARGER William Frome
allowing for variant spellings, there are lots more hits, and suspect this is one of yours:
1885 148/122 KAERGER Louisa Dorethea Johanne Fred KAERGER (F) Frome
don't have time to look more now, but will try again this evening.
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Re: KARGER ~ Prussia/Germany/Poland

Postby Sylcec » Tue Jul 21, 2015 12:58 am

Found this on Trove in the South Australian Register of 24 Nov 1883:
APPTLA-YARROWIE. November 23.

A fatal accident happened a few miles north of here yesterday to an old farm labourer named Karger. He was carting hay at Mr. Russock's farm, and while loading the hay fell from the top of the load to the ground and broke his neck. Dr. Hamilton was sent for, but the unfortunate sufferer lived only a few hours. He leaves a wife and a large family, for whom much sympathy is felt.
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KARGER ~ Prussia/Germany/Poland

Postby brunes08 » Tue Jul 21, 2015 7:27 am

Regarding Syclec's post about death records, the only Frome that I know of is in Somerset, England. However, when people emigrated, they often named a place after their home so, of course there could be lots of other places around the world named Frome. If that is the case, then Frome doesn't fit with Poland/Prussia so could be discarded as a possibility unless there is a Frome in Australia.
I have just re-read the original post and realise that Frome is the Australia one. I tried to discard my post but it didn't work.
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Re: KARGER ~ Prussia/Germany/Poland

Postby ianbee » Tue Jul 21, 2015 8:58 am

National Archives of Australia
Karger, Wilhelm - Memorial of Naturalisation, 1874

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http://recordsearch.naa.gov.au/SearchNR ... ?B=3178070

Says Wilhelm is 45 years old, a native of Heinersdorf in Prussia.
Had resided in South Australia for two months, arrived by the ship "Helene"
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Re: KARGER ~ Prussia/Germany/Poland

Postby AdrianB38 » Tue Jul 21, 2015 11:51 am

Looking at the passenger list on Ancestry (see "Hamburg Passenger Lists, 1850-1934"), the reproduction is not great so I can't really read the column headings - apart from my German not being good enough.

Heinersdorf is in one column, followed by Preussen in the next. The next after that, I can't read at all. According to Wikipedia, Heinersdorf is basically a part of the Berlin conurbation, so it must surely have been in Prussia (Preussen) since 1701 (I'm quoting Wikipedia again).

But this does leave the question - is Heinersdorf is his birthplace or his last residence? (The column may be headed Bisheriger Wohn-something, which possibly means Previous Residence???)

The naturalisation papers say "native of Heinersdorf in Prussia" - but again, I suggest this means residence, not necessarily birthplace.

Looking at the trees, which are not evidence, of course, we seem to be going all over the place with his birthplace. One Ancestry tree says "Kielge, Kije, Poland"; another says "Kielge,Kije,,,Preussen or Kay,Laufen,Bayern,,,Poland" which makes even less sense. My geography and history may be a bit suspect but I seriously doubt Bavaria (Bayern) has ever been in anything known as Poland!

On FamilySearch, one instance of this chap started with "Kay, Laufen, Bayern, Poland" as a birthplace but was altered early this year to "Laufen, Oberbayern, Bayern, Germany". I suggest there was no justification for this other than "Bayern, Poland" is garbage whereas Laufen is, it seems, a genuine place in Bayern (Bavaria). But there is no evidence that Laufen is correct in the first place! And if you were to look at the history in FamilySearch FamilyTree for this chap, you'd give up and start looking for something simpler - like the Higgs Boson.

The problem is that none of the trees quote any sources for the birthplace - they are, therefore, mythologies not histories. You simply have to work with what you are given, look for contemporary records and ignore mythologies.

I'd try and start with the immigration. Try to find what that 3rd column after Preussen says.

Then understand the records for the Heinersdorf area - are your Kargers there? In particular, can you find the marriage and the births of their 3 children? If you can't, does that mean they were married / born elsewhere or just that the records were destroyed later on?

If you do find any Polish records online - take a look but do not try to convince yourself that you yet have any justification for believing they came from there.

And the very best of luck - better you stop with his residence in Europe, which you know is true, than insult his memory by guessing. Or that's my view.
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Re: KARGER ~ Prussia/Germany/Poland

Postby ianbee » Tue Jul 21, 2015 1:49 pm

Family Search has
Hamburg Passenger List Terminology
https://familysearch.org/learn/wiki/en/ ... erminology

Bisheriger Stand oder Beruf = Present status or occupation

Wilhelm was a coachman on the naturalisation record, which may be "kutscher" in German. Is that what it says on the passenger list?
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Re: KARGER ~ Prussia/Germany/Poland

Postby brunes08 » Wed Jul 22, 2015 7:29 am

If you haven't done so, I suggest that you look at the section on Useful Resources recently added to the Forum. A post by ermin79 is about ancestry in Prussia/Germany/ Poland. Although it is about one person's family, apparently there are links to other resources that might help.
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