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Born at Sea

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Born at Sea

Postby nuttree » Tue Jun 09, 2015 9:15 am

Born at Sea

Tue Jun 09, 2015 12:02 am
Joseph WEBSTER and his wife Mary had 6 children baptised in Repton Derbyshire between 1816 and 1831 and then 2 more in Milton (I am particularly interester in Clara borm in Milton in 1836.
Joseph died and Mary married Matthew Matley in Repton 15 Oct 1849. I have her second marriage certificate which says she was a widow aged 52 of Milton in the parish of Repton and her father was John BROWN a labourer. I have found her on censuses between 1841 and 1871 she died in 1877.
1841 HO107/ 192/4 fo51 p16 her place of birth is "German Ocean"
1851 HO107/2011 fo 408 p5 "On board ship on voyage from Holland"
1861 RG 9/ 1961 fo92 p14 "British Seas"
1871 RG10/2899 fo 74 p4 "On the British Seas
Her birth seems to be about 1796

My problem is how can I find out about her parents.
Why would a labourer be traveling from Holland to Britain in 1796?
Was there any military action around that time but if that is the reason for the traveling would a labourer be able to have his wife with him?
Where should I be looking to find where she grew up and or where her parents married?
Are there any records of births in British waters back in 1790s
Finally Where and when did Joseph WEBSTER marry Mary BROWN? First known child 1816 in REPTON.
Many thanks for reading this I will be grateful if someone can help me get further with the family
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Re: Born at Sea

Postby Sylcec » Tue Jun 09, 2015 11:15 am

For the marriage you may need to stretch your looking into both adjoining parishes and also into Leicestershire and Staffordshire as Repton, Derbyshire is rather near the borders of both those counties. To visualise the extent of Repton and discover contiguous parishes use http://maps.familysearch.org/
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Re: Born at Sea

Postby nuttree » Tue Jun 09, 2015 12:09 pm

Many thanks will look wider
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Born at Sea

Postby brunes08 » Wed Jun 10, 2015 7:19 am

Just because she describes her father as a labourer on her marriage certificate doesn't mean he was a labourer all his life. He may have become a labourer upon 'retirement' perhaps when he gave up being whatever he was when she was born at sea. Unfortunately, the difficulty is knowing what he might have been in his younger days - military, merchantman etc. If you haven't done so already, perhaps tracking down her siblings to see if anything else comes to light in, for example, census returns.
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Re: Born at Sea

Postby nuttree » Wed Jun 10, 2015 4:43 pm

Many thanks for your reply. While I agree her father may well have changed occupation I doubt if a trained trades man etc would end his days as a labourer. All I have is her second marriage in 1849 in Repton when she said her father was John Brown a labourer.The marriage certificate does not mention that her father was alive or deceased. I don't see a suitable John BROWN in REPTON in 1841 or 185I. I have the censuses for her between 1841 and 1871for Mary. Children were baptised in Repton to Joseph and Mary Webster in 1816,1818, 1822,1825 1828,1831,1836,and 1839. so unless Joseph married two Marys and the marriage to Mary Brown was betweeen 1831 and 1836 I think Mary Brown was already married at a young age before 1816, so I do not have her on any censuses with her birth family and have no idea where she grew up or if she had siblings or what her mother's name was. I don't even know if her mother was traveling with her father when she gave birth on the North Sea. Nor do I know where or when she married Joseph WEBSTER. The second marriage was in the Independent Chapel in Repton, but the Webster children were baptised Cof E.
What I have now found, however, is a Mary BROWN baptised in REPTON 25 Dec 1794 to a John and Sarah BROWN. at first glance this looks promising BUT the couple had a son baptised in Repton in 1793 so why would Mary be born the following year returning from HOLLAND? Is it safe to take this family as the one I want?
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Re: Born at Sea

Postby 2012girl » Wed Jun 10, 2015 8:01 pm

There is a marriage of a Mary Brown (spinster) to a Thomas Coxon (bachelor), 11 Jun 1815, Repton, both of the parish of Repton and married by licence with consent of parents, according to Freereg, which may be the Mary Brown baptised there in 1794.

There are also some children born to this couple (in 1815, 1817 & 1819 but jointly baptised in 1821) so I'm not sure you can simply assume the 1794 baptism is the one you want without further proof.

If Mary was telling the truth about her birth place and her fathers details then could he have been in the army? I have a lady in my tree born during that period who stated she was born in Jersey, this initially made no sense to me as her parents married and lived in Yorkshire. It turned out the father had been in the army and they had been posted to Jersey and had some children born there. I found a military record of his discharge on Find My Past, so that may be worth checking if you have a subscription?

No luck with the marriage to Joseph Webster. This makes me wonder if all was as it seems with them. Do you have an age for Joseph? Was he born in the county according to the 1841 census?

There is a marriage of a Joseph Webster (bachelor of the parish of Bradley/possibly Bradby?) to a Mary Ingram (spinster of the parish of Bradby) 1 Jun 1807, Repton. This looks like it would be too early to be your Mary, but could it be Joseph?

You mention the child, John Webster, baptised 25 Aug 1839, Repton. Do you have his birth certificate? If not you may want to obtain it for confirmation that Mary's maiden name was indeed Brown.

John Webster, Sep 1839, Burton On Trent, v.17 pg.15

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Re: Born at Sea

Postby nuttree » Thu Jun 11, 2015 6:49 am

Many thanks for your reply
As you can see from my original post I too wonder about a military connection. How can this be checked any ideas?
Strangley I have just been trying to look at possible marriages for the John and Sarah Brown in Repton children and have found several of them marrying about 20 years on including the Mary, I agree it is not likely to be my Mary. I wonder if the story of having a father John and being born at sea was just that a story told the child to cover an illegitimate birth how on earth can that be proved though? I think I will just need to accept this tree is going to have a gap in it.
Joseph Webster died before appearing on a census Family Search has him buried in Repton 9 Aug 1840 age 61 giving a birth year of 1779 and there is a baptism in Repton for a Joseph 1 Jun 1779 to a Joseph and Sarah which looks good. A Joseph WEBSTER married Sarah HEARTLY 26 Jan 1779 in REPTON ( Ancestry selected Derbyshire Parish Registers)
I did wonder if it was worth getting the certificate of John but as we already have the marriage of his mum to her second husband I didn't think it would be worth getting.( being a pensioner I tend only to get direct line certificates, and this is my cousin's tree not mine) John was born Q3 1839 his father died Q3 1840 and his mother remarried 15 Oct 1849 all in Repton or Milton which is part of Repton.John is with his mother in 1841 HO107/ 192/4 fo51 p16 and with his mother and step father in 1851 HO107/2011 fo 408 p5 a sister also appears on both censuses so there is continuity.
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Re: Born at Sea

Postby nuttree » Thu Jun 11, 2015 7:26 am

I had dismissed Mary INGRAM who is shown as Clara's mother on some An..try trees as from the censuses Mary would have been far too young to marry in 1807 But as you point out this could be a previous wife for Joseph Webster if the death is correct he was a good deal older than Clara's mum. I think my next step is to find a death for a Mary Webster may be I am looking too early for the Wbster Brown marriage. Many thanks for bringing that to my attention.
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Re: Born at Sea

Postby techieng » Thu Jun 11, 2015 10:43 am

hi..my first time here i like this forum
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Re: Born at Sea

Postby 2012girl » Thu Jun 11, 2015 11:38 am

You could check the military records for any sign of a John Brown from Derbyshire c.1796 or thereabouts, rather a common name I'm afraid but I found the record I mentioned on FMP.

I understand about the cost of certificates, sometimes they tell you nothing more than you already know but when trying to unravel mysteries such as this all avenues should be explored if possible. Occasionally certificates can throw up surprises, but it is for you to decide if you think it is worth it. Certainly if it were a direct line I would advise you to obtain John's birth and Joseph's death certificates for further clues.

There is a burial of a Mary Webster 28 Nov 1834, Repton, but the transcription says she was 84. If that age is correct then surely too old to be Mary Ingram.

Given their stated parishes on the marriage this looks like it may be children born to Joseph Webster & Mary Ingram:

Ann Webster, born 7 Aug 1808, baptised 14 May 1809, Bradby. Parents: Joseph & Mary
Mary Webster, born 26 May 1810, baptised 24 Jun 1810, Bradby. Parents: Joseph & Mary
John Webster, born 18 Jul 1812, baptised 16 Aug 1812, Bradby. Parents: Joseph & Mary

They may warrant further investigation. There doesn't appear to be an obvious overlap between this couple and the Repton couple. Perhaps Mary Ingram disappeared off the scene and Joseph got together with Mary Brown? It does look like he might have been quite a bit older than her. Even extending the time frame I can't come up with a marriage for them.

There is a burial of a John Webster, 9 Feb 1834, Repton, age 21. Possibly the one born in 1812? Given that the child born in 1839 was also a John that may fit. Using the christian names of deceased children again was common back then.

Are the Derbyshire records viewable online? It would be interesting to compare the baptisms to see if you can match anything up, such as occupation, between these two Joseph Websters.

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