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Born at Sea

A problem shared is a problem halved. Post your brick walls here and see whether you can offer advice to others

Re: Born at Sea

Postby nuttree » Sat Jun 20, 2015 11:00 am

Yes I had found the Little over birth and mentioned it to my cousin( this is really his tree not my own)
Its amazing how many problems this tree is throwing up.
I found that Harriet WEBSTER married Edward WATTs and they had three children by 1851. I think Edward died Q2 1854. In 1861 Harriet is wife of John R Goldingay(1819 Spark Brook). (surely a good name to research).
Her son Reuben is with her in 1861 71 and 1881 on the first two his surname is Goldingay and son of John and Harriet GOLDINGAY then in 1881 he is Reuben WATTs step son of John Goldingay. So far so good On the 1861 census a Susannah Waldron is with them listed as sister) and a nephew 22 yr old Charles WALDRON
In 1841 Susannah is with Edwin WALDRON they have a son Charles age 3 Charles is 14 and with his grandparents John Goldingay (1780 Castle Bromwich)and Hannah(1791) in 1851
So it looks like Susannah and John are siblings children of John 1780

So where and did John GOLDINGAY and Harriet WATTs nee WEBSTER marry and was his father the farmer who died in 1858 but in 1841 he has a son john 20 and daughter Susannah 15 while the 1861 census shows john 43 and Susannah 52 so a big discrepancy
Last edited by nuttree on Mon Jun 22, 2015 6:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Born at Sea

Postby sdup26 » Sun Jun 21, 2015 2:24 pm

I can’t find a marriage for John and Harriet. Emily, Reuben and Betsey had their births registered as Watts, so they’re probably listed as Goldingay on the censuses for respectability, although Reuben has decided to revert to Watts in 1881. In censuses, ‘son’ could also be stepson, or son-in-law. You need to get the 1854 death certificate for Edward Watts to confirm he was Harriet’s husband, because if he wasn’t and Edward was still alive, it could explain why she didn’t marry John G.

John’s year of birth wobbles around a bit, but it’s quite common for ages to vary between censuses by two or three years, or even more. Remember too, that in 1841, ages were rounded down, so for example, someone who was actually 19 could be listed as 15, then in 1851 and beyond, their age would appear to ‘jump’ upwards.

A Susannah Goldingay married Edwin Waldron in Birmingham in 1834, and they had children Hannah 1835, Charles 1839, and Jane 1840. If Charles Waldron was living with John Goldingay (b1780) and Hannah in 1851 as their grandson, then his mother was almost certainly their daughter.

Relationships aren’t given in the 1841 census, so the Susannah born about 1826 and living with John and Hannah in 1841, may be another of their grandchildren. She can’t be their daughter Susannah, mother of their grandson Charles, as she was born about 1810.
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Re: Born at Sea

Postby nuttree » Mon Jun 22, 2015 6:43 pm

what a daft mistake to make of course the relationship is not given in 1841 and anyway I have Susannah with her husband then put it down to a senior moment! Anyway you agree with me it is the same Harriet on both censuses with or with out a formal marriage a case of like mother like daughter ?? (I still have no marriage for Joseph WEBSTER and Mary Brown after all. Good thinking about confirming it was the husband who died in 1854 I'll work on that for a bit.

added you are right the 1854 death is for a much older Edward in Catle Bromwich there is one with the right birth year in 1873 now checking the 1871 census
Last edited by nuttree on Sun Jul 05, 2015 8:44 am, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Born at Sea

Postby sdup26 » Wed Jun 24, 2015 9:30 am

I agree with you that it’s the same Harriet, and it may indeed be like mother, like daughter. That’s not a criticism, just the way it was, when divorce wasn’t really possible for ordinary folk. Most people tracing their family will find an example of illegitimacy, or an unmarried couple living together as married, which can make life difficult for the tracers, trying to work it all out.
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Re: Born at Sea

Postby nuttree » Sun Aug 06, 2017 4:42 am

A recent personal note has reopened the search of this tricky problem So here is an update in the hope it leads us to a conclusion.
The GRO index now shows mother's maiden name and for the youngest child of Joseph and Mary it shows ROUND now this is another mystery I woukd have expected it to show BROWN Did Joseph have yet another wife called Mary nee ROUND if so he must have lost her and remarried Mary Brown between1838 and his death the following year which seems very unlikely but John is with Mary on both 1841 and 1851 censuses so what was going on here is it possible that Round and Brown were mis transcribed some how?

we now have found a wonderful site owned by a Michael Spencer. ... onsM-R.htm

He has collected a great deal of Parish Chest records for Derbyshire among which I have copied these interesting snippets first settlement examinations

"222 Ann CRISP wife of Richard CRISP Private Soldier in the Army of Reserve. That in Dec 1803 she left her husband at Silver Hill Barracks, Sussex. Richard CRISP Settlement at Tamworth, Warwicks. Now "with child", Joseph WEBSTER of Bradby (Bretby?)Dbys is the father. 1805"

It looks like Joseph Webster successfully hide away as he did not appear in the Bastardy papers for either Bretby or Repton

"229 Ann CRISP Repton. Eight years ago married at Repton Richard CRISP, then a Private in the Army of Reserve, afterwards transferred to 2nd Batt. 69th Rgt of Foot. Went with husband to Silver Hill Barracks. She returned to Repton. Last letter received from him in 1807 and he was then in Ireland. In 1809 a letter addressed to Mrs BULL of Repton from her son William informed her that her husband was dead. In 1808 she had gone to live with W MEASHAM of Repton farmer. Now with child. 1811"

This child would appear to be daughter of John ROBERTS

Bastardy paper

"B7 Ann CRISP, female, born May 1811 John ROBERTS, Egginton 1811"

"230 Sarah MEASHAM of Repton concerning settlement of William Measham CRISP the illegitimate son of her dau Ann CRISP formerly Ann MEASHAM spinster.Seven years ago being with child residing in Repton, removed to Tamworth, Staffs. her legal settlement where she was delivered of the said pauper William Measham CRISP. Fathered on Joseph WEBSTER of Bradby (Bretby) Dbys. The pauper is now aged seven and chargeable to Repton. 1812"

William Measham CRISP as born about 1805 It looks like his mother had been sent back to Tanworth and he was with his maternal grandmother for some reason she could no longer support him and has asked for help in paying for his upkeep from the parish the result being:

Removal order

"R80 William Measham CRISP illeg. child of Ann CRISP (heretofore MEASHAM spinster) 1812 on oath of Sarah MEASHAM mother of Ann CRISP. To Tamworth, Warwicks and Staffs."

There are apprentice papers which are also interesting:
6 John WEBSTER son of Joseph WEBSTER Milton to William RATCLIFF Repton Jan 1811

47 John WEBSTER agreement with William RATCLIFF Repton Feb 1811
Last edited by nuttree on Sun Aug 06, 2017 12:32 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Born at Sea

Postby nuttree » Sun Aug 06, 2017 11:16 am

Given the above bastardy case I and the fact that banns were only called on one date 03 Aug 1806 at St Modwen Burton upon Trent I am guessing this is all the same Joseph probably Mary ingrams parents objected to her marrying a chap in a bastardy case with another woman, or did he have to serve time so the wedding had to be postponed a year?
Palott's index shows both Joseph Webster and Mary ingram were of Bradby so that fits with the three children baptised in that place
So we know Mary Ingram had three children in Bradby
Ann 1809 Mary 1810 and John 1812 I have now found another child Joseph baptised in Bradby in 1813
then she seems to disappear or does she? Did the authroties cath him up for the bastardy case in 1812? It looks like William Measham Crisp had been taken on by his maternal grandmother and in 1811 for some reason she had been obliged to seek parish help with him so at that point he became chargable to his refuted father Did he leave Mary and go into hiding to evade the charges and met Mary Brown or did the pregnant Mary Ingram say enough is enough and leave him either way it would explain why there is no apparant marriage to Mary Brown if he did marry it would have been bigamy ( he couldn't marry again until such time as Mary Ingram died or had deserted him for a full seven years)Having found Joseph baptised 26 Dec 1813 there is no ovious gap in all the joseph and Mary Children so when did mary Brown come into the picture? Its not so clear cut now is it. The widow Mary Webster born at sea is too young to be Mary ingram and clear that her father was John BROWN so there are definitely two ladies involved with Joseph Webster

So I can see a connection between Mary Ingram the Bastardy case and Mary Brown working out but
[b]Why did John have a mother ROUND?? and who was the apprentice John son of Joseph born about 1804?[/b]
Any ideas what do other people think about this please
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Re: Born at Sea

Postby nuttree » Thu Aug 10, 2017 11:13 am

well at last a break through and a lesson to self Check all possibilities and don't jump to conclusions so quickly!
we now have found a baptism for a Joseph Webster in Bradby/Bretby in 1785 This surely is the one involved in the bastardy case and who went on to marry Mary Ingram so a complet red herring to my family
So now my brick wall looks like this
Joseph and Mary had children 1816-1839 in Repton
A Joseph died in Repton aged 61 and Mary is on the 1841 census living with maried daughter Ann (PARKER) and the four youngest WEBSTER children. This Mary WEBSTER married in 1849 and giving her father's name as John BROWNN in 1851 two of the children are with her and her new husband.
the unanswered questions remain
The 1841 1851 1861 and 1871 census all show Mary born at sea in 1796 where did she live between that date and 1816?
was Mary Brown the mother of all the children?
why does the GRO index have John;s mother as ROUND not BROWN in 1839?
When and Where did Joseph marry Mary BROWN?
Where can I look next any ideas?
Was Joseph married before ?
was this Joseph the father of John WEBSTER who was made an apprentice in 1811?
Who was mother of John the apprentice?
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