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AJ Cattle - did he serve in WW1?

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Re: AJ Cattle - did he serve in WW1?

Postby ianbee » Sat Aug 01, 2015 11:38 am

Electoral registers for Islington, Autumn 1919, Spring 1920 and Autumn 1920 are on Ancestry. Were they added in the recent update?
Alexander John Cattle is on the Autumn 1919 register, at 170 Marlborough Road, listed in Division 2 voters (North Division, Polling District F) Quite a lot of the names have an "a" against them, as absent voters, but not Alexander.
In fact the Absent Voters List for Islington North, Autumn 1919, is also included on there.
Voters in Marlborough Road, division 2 are found on images 1208 & 1209 (division 1 on images 1201 & 1202)
So we can see, for example, that Jack Woodworth, one of Alexander's neighbours (158 Marlborough Road) was in the 155th Siege Battery, Royal Garrison Artillery, regimental number 178864

Part of the Islington 1918 electoral register is also on Ancestry, but I can't see any of the North Division. I don't think they have put up any of the Spring 1919 register yet.
It isn't looking very promising re Alexander, but you should still check them if or when you can. If he was in the Army it's possible that (whilst serving?) he might have qualified to vote at 19, not 21
Representation of the People Act, 1918 -
A male naval or military voter who has served or hereafter serves in or in connection with the present war shall, notwithstanding anything in this or any other Act, be entitled to be registered as a parliamentary elector if that voter at the commencement of service had attained, or during service attains, the age of nineteen years, and is otherwise qualified

The mystery deepens!
Ian
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Re: AJ Cattle - did he serve in WW1?

Postby Jenaheldd » Sat Aug 01, 2015 2:37 pm

Thanks for the heads up Ian - these electoral registers were indeed updated a couple of days ago.

That is definately my granddad but after checking the lists, why would his parents who live at the same address, be on a different electoral register? As you say, in 1919, Alex was showing as Division, but on a separate list, his parents are showing as Division 1? Think I need to look at these properly

As you say, it's not looking promising, but if he didn't serve, why do I have pictures of him in uniform??? Could he have been a fusillier but not gone anywhere?

Jackie
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Re: AJ Cattle - did he serve in WW1?

Postby ianbee » Sat Aug 01, 2015 6:08 pm

Hi
Those divisions from the autumn 1919 register - division one voters could vote in both parliamentary and local elections, division two voters could vote in parliamentary elections only.
I think it's probably the last year they laid out the registers like that. Afterwards you get everyone shown together, and you have the columns to left of their names telling you their qualification for voting in either kind of election (or a line in the local government column, meaning they have no qualification, and can't vote in those elections - usually young people, non ratepayers)

There must be a reason Alexander seemingly wasn't in the army in 1919. Still best to check the earlier registers when possible, they are at the LMA, so they should be available online eventually.
The photograph shows he must have been in the Fusiliers at some stage. So I guess the question is, when was he discharged from the army, and why? And is their any way at all of finding out?
Ian
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Re: AJ Cattle - did he serve in WW1?

Postby AdrianB38 » Sat Aug 01, 2015 7:48 pm

Cheshire's surviving Absent Voters Lists are Autumn 1918, Spring 1919 and Autumn 1919. My maternal granddad is only in the Autumn 1918 one, for the simple reason that he was demobbed after that and before the next AVL. So it's distinctly possible that demob could be the answer to his absence from the Autumn 1919 AVL.

Re your question, Jackie, "Could he have been a fusilier but not gone anywhere?" Absolutely yes. He could have got no further than the training camps or depots in the UK - in which case, he gets no medals and if the Fusilier shelves in the Arnside St warehouse were too near the fire, then we could be seriously stuck for any documentation. Having said that, I would have thought that he would have qualified as an Absent Voter even if inside the UK. So maybe he wasn't absent in late 1919.

I think we have to cross our fingers and hope he's in surviving earlier AVLs. Except if the qualification is 21, he won't be in them. Unless, he's a serving soldier, in which case Ian's interpretation of 19 applies... Err - I think I follow that... :?
Adrian
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Re: AJ Cattle - did he serve in WW1?

Postby Jenaheldd » Sun Aug 02, 2015 10:20 am

Grandad's brother (Alfred William, b Jul 1894) appears on the 1919 electoral list at 11 Hatchard Road, Holloway and he was in the Navy. I haven't really looked into his service yet, but his record is on the Royal Navy Register of Seamens Services, 1900-1928 and unless I'm reading it wrong, it looks like he only served August 1917 - March 1918 - which seems very short

So ... clutching at straws here ;) , maybe he did serve but demobbed in 1918/early 1919 like his brother. I either need to wait for the Islington North division lists from 1918 to be put on line or make a trip to the LMA (which is a bit annoying as I was there a couple of weeks ago looking into some other bits!)

I did actually find another couple of army photos - they don't help or tell us anything, but here they are anyway. I love the 'Bing Boys' image (grandad is back row on the left) and it looks like it was taken at a training camp. No idea if grandad is in the other image - the faces are too small to distinguish.
Attachments
men.JPG
men.JPG (336.13 KiB) Viewed 2243 times
group shot.JPG
group shot.JPG (413.63 KiB) Viewed 2243 times
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Re: AJ Cattle - did he serve in WW1?

Postby ianbee » Sun Aug 02, 2015 3:19 pm

Hi Jackie
Had a look at Alfred's Navy record (I'm no expert!) - it seems to say he was an Aircraftman, ACM2, then ACM1
Was discharged 31 March 1918
In "Remarks" is stamped "Engt to R.A.F"

The R.A.F. was formed 1 April 1918, to quote wikipedia " by merging the Royal Flying Corps and the Royal Naval Air Service"

There appears to be a record for Alfred on findmypast, "British Royal Air Force, Airmen's Service Records 1912-1939", haven't seen it myself, is indexed as
Alfred William Cattle
birth year 1894
attestation year 1917
service number 235353
occupation Omnibus Conductor

A.W. Cattle is also on the Royal Air Force Muster Roll 1918

Fantastic photos, is it too much to hope that someone someday might recognize one of the other people in the second one?
If you can get to the LMA again in the near future to look at those electoral rolls, that would be great. If you can't, then I'm quite willing to call up the microfilms on my next visit there and post you a report.
Ian
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Re: AJ Cattle - did he serve in WW1?

Postby Jenaheldd » Sun Aug 02, 2015 3:55 pm

Afternoon Ian

I'll have a look at the Find My Past records for Alfred and see what they've got.

It's so frustrating (but that's part of the fun of family history of course!!) - I can find the records for granddads cousins who served in WW1 - all the service records are intact, albeit a little singed round the edges - but nothing on the person I really want to find!!

Crazy thing is, I've got a photo of my great grandmother (Alexs mum) and she's wearing one of those sweetheart brooches and I'm reasonably confident its the Fusillier emblem and what makes it worse is I think I've got the brooch .... but I just can't find it...... :evil:

Anyway, I will try and get back to the LMA in the next month or so, but if you visit beforehand and do get a chance to check, that would be great - thank you for the offer.

Jackie
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Re: AJ Cattle - did he serve in WW1?

Postby ianbee » Thu Aug 20, 2015 5:07 pm

News from the LMA, both good and disappointing!
Alexander John Cattle is on both of those electoral registers, 1918 and Spring 1919
He is listed in the Division 2 voters for Islington North, Polling District F
Has the "a" against his name and is a NM voter at 170 Marlborough Road

However, I did not see any AVLs on the films. You should certainly check through them yourself when you go, but I am thinking that the autumn 1919 Northern Division AVL being filmed and included was just a bit of luck. Certainly I don't remember seeing many others with those London rolls, although there are some I know.
So I guess you now have to try and find out if there are surviving earlier AVLs, and, if so, where they are.

1918 Northern Div was on mf X108/234, with more of Islington on X108/235
Spring 1919 was X108/275 (and more Islington on X108/276)
In the division one voters, Alfred + Emmagean Cattle were at 170 Marlborough Road on the spring 1919 register.
But only Alfred was included in 1918, which is odd because you would expect to see the ladies on that one, and Fanny Watson was listed with Royal Watson at number 168.
Ian
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Re: AJ Cattle - did he serve in WW1?

Postby Jenaheldd » Fri Aug 21, 2015 1:09 pm

Thank you so much for this information Ian - very kind of you to look it up.

Hmmmm Alec was absent and a NM voter in 1918 and early 1919 ... the plot thickens. On what must be autumn 1919 lists, he's just shown as a normal resident.

I'll see if I can track down the AVLs.

Thank you again
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Re: AJ Cattle - did he serve in WW1?

Postby Jenaheldd » Mon Aug 24, 2015 8:40 am

Been in contact with a gentleman on the Great War Forum and he's given me a very plausible reason why I'm struggling to find anything.

Alec may well have been in the 53rd (Young Soldier) battalion of the Royal Fusiliers and from what he's said, most of the young soldiers did 18-months to 2-years in Germany and then the battalions were disbanded and replaced by regulars. It was in effect a stint of national service and then back to civilian life, or sign on as a regular

With Alec being absent during 1918 and early 1919 and then found as a normal resident on the Autumn 1919 electoral role, this would tie in.

Until I find evidence to tell me something different, this make sense
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