Who Do You Think You Are Magazine Forum

[Artognou]

Hi everyone,

I have just had a major revelation in my family tree about my 3rd great grandmother;

Her name was Mary Ann Lindsey, she married Abraham George Snow at Bethnal Green in 1860, on the marriage record she lists her father as William Lindsey, carpenter.

Here's where I have been tripped up, there were a couple of us who descend from them who initially thought she might have been the daughter of a Surrey couple called William and Hannah, however, I discovered earlier that it couldn't have been this family, because they went up to Scarborough.
I did wonder if she was the daughter of a couple in London, William and Mary (William was from Norfolk), but I then found a marriage that cancelled them out, both these Williams could have 'qualified' as carpenter, because one was a joiner and the other was a painter/glazier, etc.

I am now stumped!

Mary Ann varies slightly her place of birth over the years;
1861 - Bethnal Green
1871 - N.K (not known?)
1881 - London, Middlesex
1891 - Bethnal Green
1901 - London Borough
1911 - Southwark, London

Her d.o.b tends to be 1840 - 1841, (except the 1911 census, which is 1842) including her death cert from 1914, West Ham.

As you can see, this has me completely confused now and a nice reminder that brick walls can be thrown up in a matter of seconds!

I am wondering if she might have been illegitimate and might have 'invented' William, or that she did have a father who died early or she went to live with other people, but finding her on census records from 1841-1851 is proving hard and the same goes for birth/baptism records as well.

Any help would be very appreciated,

Alex.

[brunes08]

Regarding census returns, there are opportunities for errors at different stages. I have a gt grandfather who is listed on 2 censuses as born in Lincolnshire and 2 in Norfolk. He is definitely the same person - his wife was from Norfolk so this may be where some confusion crept in. It depends who gives the information to the enumerator. The enumerator then transfers it to the formats we know - except for the 1911 census which has been completed by someone in the household. It also depends what a person is asked. There is a difference between "where were you born" and "where are you from".

All your earlier censuses indicate the Bethnal Green area, north of the river. Borough and Southwark are next to each other south of the river. As she dies in the West Ham district, which is near Bethnal Green, it may be that she or someone else was confused with the questions asked. Perhaps she had moved to the Southwark district for some years and then returned after the 1911 census. Alternatively, are you absolutely sure the two women are one and the same?

[Artognou]

Thankyou for your thoughts Brunes, it's absolutely Mary Ann in all of the census records, after she was widowed in 1875, she lived with her children all the way, including 1911, where she moved in with another of her daughters.

She did live in Southwark for a while, which is where several of her children were born.

This is a very puzzling one, indeed!

[Mick Loney]

Just to throw in my tuppence worth, I had a similar situation with my GGrandmother Rosetta Annie/ Annie Rosetta Moore, who married Henry Sellers. On her marriage certificate, her father is shown as George Moore. She lived in the Poplar area of East London, and her birth place in the censuses is consistently shown as being in a similar area, that is, north of the river. The only birth that seemed to match, however, was one in Southwark, which as you know is south of the river, so I was doubtful it was correct.

A family tree on Ancestry had the same Annie from Southwark, with a father called George, and they also had the death certificate of George. The informant, was none other than Mrs A R Sellers (daughter) and the address she gave was one I knew from my GrandMothers census entry, problem solved at last.

Two lessons learned
1: Census information Is not always accurate. As you say, where you came from and where you were born not necessarily same thing.
2: Death certificates have more uses than just killing off your ancestor. In this case it proved a direct link between my Annie and the one from Southwark.

Mike


Sent from my iPad using WDYTYA Forum

[Artognou]

Thanks everyone,

As you can see, the census records have been but a part of the issue, I believe she was from the Bethnal Green area, because that was also where she married, but the other massive problem is finding who William was, whether he could have been a grandfather, rather than a father, if at all or indeed, where her birth record is, or if she had siblings.
It's as if she didn't exist previous to the marriage, because I cannot for the life of me find anything I might consider a definite match at all.

I shall have a look through the workhouse records, just in case, because I'm running out of ideas, fast.

[ianbee]

Hi
On the 1860 marriage, Mary gives her address as 7 Northampton Street.
And in the 1861 census, at 7 Northampton Street, Bethnal Green (piece 256 folio 40 page 2) is -
William Arnould, 40, born Berkshire, Warehouse Man, and his wife Susannah, 41, and two children
Thomas and Emma Heywood, both 29, and their daughter Emma, plus a widowed Eliza Sydie, 49

William Arnould seems to have witnessed the Heywood's marriage in Hackney in 1856, bride was Emma Sydie.
More interesting, there is a marriage of a William Arnould at St Saviour Southwark, 2nd January 1844. Bride was Susannah Lindsey. Father William Lindsey. I'm not sure, but it may say that her father was a Carpenter.
So you could try to find the Arnoulds in 1851, see if that's a help?
Ian

[ianbee]

1851
piece 1553 folio 627 page 3
Parish Stepney
7 Knaith Terrace
W Arnould Head Married 30 Seedsman, born Berks Aston
Susannah Arnould Wife Married 29 Middx Spitalfields
Mary Arnould Daur 11 Scholar Middx Whitechapel
Wm Arnould Son 1 Southwark

[Artognou]

Thankyou so much, Ian!

I'm getting a possible picture together in my head now, I'm wondering whether or not she was a pre-marital daughter of Susannah and a step-daughter of William.
I have a possible result for 1841 in St Saviour where there is a Mary Lindsey, a year old or less, living with a Susan Lindsey, age 21 and a probably older sister of her's called Mary.

Still on the lookout for a birth certificate, but this is pretty amazing stuff you've found and also, on Susannah's marriage record, it does say that William is a carpenter.

Thanks again, I don't think I would have uncovered this!

[Artognou]

My upbeat outlook has turned to the complete opposite!

None of this is making sense now, no birth records for either Mary Ann or Susannah has made this almost impossible and finding out who William is, is proving a complete nightmare!

Could Susannah have invented William? I can't for the life of me see any possibility for William anywhere!

[meekhcs]

Yes I am afraid she may have. It happened several generations back in my Family. A birth certificate contained totally fictitous parents details, because the baby was illegitimate. It took me years of research, postings on this Forum, and many wasted hours, before I discovered the truth completely by accident whilst researching a different person!
Sally