Moderator Control Panel ]

Elizabeth BURTON

A problem shared is a problem halved. Post your brick walls here and see whether you can offer advice to others

Re: Elizabeth BURTON

Postby SDV » Fri May 15, 2015 1:35 pm

I am very confused about John Powell aka Percy Evelyn Garner. I would really like someone to explain to me the use of the term "otherwise" on the marriage certificate.

There is an appropriate Percy Evelyn Garner in several trees on Ancestry, which I know is not the most reliable source. Anyway that Percy Evelyn Garner was born in 1882 in Edmonton. He married Amy Maud Mason (1878-1916) in 1907 and they had at least 3 children together. He died in 1936 in Edmonton.

The John Powell aka Percy Evelyn Garner on the marriage certificate I have is described as a bachelor, though his bride is correctly described as a widow. So I think this is a different person to the Percy Evelyn Garner who died in 1936.

I think that the Lilian M Cosgrove living at 4 Ashwin Street is Elizabeth's daughter from her first marriage. So even though John Powell aka Percy Evelyn Garner signed his marriage certificate as John Percy Evelyn Garner, I think that they lived together as John and Elizabeth Powell. If this is correct then the John Powell at 4 Ashwin Street is not the man who died in 1936.

I think I will order the death certificate for Q1 1949 in Hackney.
SDV
 
Posts: 378
Joined: Mon Apr 13, 2015 4:47 pm

Re: Elizabeth BURTON

Postby ianbee » Fri May 15, 2015 2:15 pm

Hope someone can answer your question, as I am totally baffled
Amy, the wife of Percy Evelyn Garner, seems to have died in 1916.
What info does Mr Powell/Garner give about his father on the marriage certificate? As far as I know there was only one Percy Evelyn Garner around. He would have been 52 years old at the time of that marriage in August 1935.

More electoral rolls!
1937 - 3 Mildmay Park, Islington
Elizabeth Burton
George Jesse Burton
George Alfred Cosgrove
Lilian May Cosgrove
Elizabeth Sims
Thomas Sims

1938 + 1939 - 14 Bentley Road, Hackney
George Jesse Burton
George Cosgrove
Lilian May Cosgrove
Elizabeth Powell
John Powell
ianbee
 
Posts: 2289
Joined: Wed Jul 28, 2010 4:51 pm

Re: Elizabeth BURTON

Postby AdrianB38 » Fri May 15, 2015 2:35 pm

SDV wrote:I am very confused about John Powell aka Percy Evelyn Garner. I would really like someone to explain to me the use of the term "otherwise" on the marriage certificate.
...


On 23 April in a thread "Birth Certificate date", Guy gave us the current usage of "otherwise" in a marriage context, viz:
“Sometimes a person uses, and is known by, two names at the same time – in this instance both names should be entered using “otherwise”. If either of the couple have been known by another name, you should try to link both names using “formerly known as” providing that the party does not object.”

I suggest the important thing here is the phrase "at the same time". Obviously that means, roughly at the same time, but its use is clearly inappropriate for a woman's married and maiden names, for instance. Remember that there is no such thing in UK law as a "proper" name for someone so it's almost certainly impossible to be more specific than these instructions. It would be interesting to know if actors and musicians get registered as both their birth and stage names, linked by an "otherwise".

As for a death certificate - you would need to look under both names. Which name was used then (or both) would depend entirely on what the person registering the death knew of the deceased.
Adrian
AdrianB38
 
Posts: 2536
Joined: Tue Jul 27, 2010 4:07 pm

Re: Elizabeth BURTON

Postby SDV » Fri May 15, 2015 2:44 pm

On the marriage certificate, he gives his father as Edward Powell, a (soil) porter. Word in brackets none too clear, so could be some other kind of porter.

He himself is described as a wood working machinist, whereas the other Percy Evelyn Garner was I recall a bricklayer.
SDV
 
Posts: 378
Joined: Mon Apr 13, 2015 4:47 pm

Re: Elizabeth BURTON

Postby SDV » Thu Jan 26, 2017 4:52 pm

I have returned to this problem, given the lack of progress on other brick walls.

To summarise, I know that Elizabeth Burton (née Daniels) married John Powell at Hackney RO in August 1935, shortly after the death of her first husband, George Jesse Burton. I am sure that this is the correct Elizabeth Burton, as on her marriage certificate she correctly identifies her father, one George Thomas Daniels. John Powell is described as "otherwise Percy Evelyn Garner" and he signs the marriage certificate as Percy Evelyn Garner rather that as John Powell. John is a bachelor, whilst Elizabeth is a widow.

The 1939 register states that John Powell (a builder's labourer, b 07 Sep 1884) and Elizabeth Powell (b 23 Jul 1879) are living at Bentley Road, Hackney. I know that this is the correct Elizabeth as the birth date is correct, except for being one year out as she was born 23 Jul 1878, and a George J Burton (b 19 Feb 1910) is living with them, his details matching those of the son born to George Jesse and Elizabeth Burton.

Research on London electoral registers reveals a Percy Evelyn Garner living with George Jesse and Elizabeth Burton at 15 Albert Road in Hackney in 1933. I assume that the George Jesse Burton is her husband rather than her son of the same name.

Percy Evelyn Garner continues to live with George Jesse and Elizabeth Burton at 138 Graham Road in Dalston in 1934, 1935 and 1936. Once again I assume that the George Jesse Burton is her husband rather than her son of the same name, since electoral registers are prepared in advance. 138 Graham Road is correct, as it is the same address given for both John Powell and Elizabeth Burton on their marriage certificate.

After the war, John and Elizabeth Powell continue to appear together in the electoral registers with various members of family from Elizabeth's first marriage. They are at 4 Ashwin Street from at least 1948. John Powell continues to be registered at 4 Ashwin Street after his wife's death in January 1949 at that address. He last appears at that address in the 1955 register, though members of Elizabeth's family are still there in 1956.

I cannot find a death - or indeed a birth - for John Powell. All I know for certain, apart from his marriage in 1935, is that his father was named Edward Powell and was a "soil" porter. This is gathered from his marriage certificate and the transcription of "soil" may well be wrong.

There is, of course, a Percy Evelyn Garner, in the records. He was born in Q4 1882 in Edmonton, married Amy Maud Mason in Feb 1907, enlisted in the army in Nov 1914, was discharged from the army in Dec 1914, having been assessed as "not likely to become an efficient soldier", and died Q2 1936 in Edmonton. His wife Amy died Q3 1916 in Edmonton. It would appear that this individual's parents were William Garner and Hannah Sophia Riches.

I do not see how the two Percy Evelyn Garners can be the same person, given that there is evidence of the one who married Elizabeth Burton being alive until at least 1955, some 20 years after the death of the first, and moreover claiming to be a bachelor. Nor can I find any connection between the two. I still do not understand the use of the word "otherwise" on the marriage certificate, despite the kind attempts of some on this forum to explain it. I would really like to know what happened in Elizabeth's life post her first husband's death in 1935. As for John Powell, I am totally confused. Presumably he is dead, but I have no idea of when he died. I would love to find a death certificate or an obituary, as one of these might clear some of the mystery.

I know that this is a long post, but so is my confusion.
SDV
 
Posts: 378
Joined: Mon Apr 13, 2015 4:47 pm

Re: Elizabeth BURTON

Postby SDV » Sun Jan 29, 2017 4:23 pm

Thanks for the suggestion. I will follow it up.
SDV
 
Posts: 378
Joined: Mon Apr 13, 2015 4:47 pm

Re: Elizabeth BURTON

Postby SDV » Thu Jul 26, 2018 2:21 pm

Hi, I have returned to this mystery after some time dealing with other easier brick walls.

To sum up the state of play, John POWELL (aka Percy Every GARNER), a 52 y o bachelor and wood working machinist, married Elizabeth BURTON, a 54 y o widow, on 31 Aug 1935 at Hackney RO. Elizabeth's maiden name was DANIELS and her first husband was George Jesse BURTON, who she married on 28 Oct 1900 at Wood Green.

There are several mysteries about John POWELL: (1) where was he before his marriage in 1935, (2) why was he referred to as John POWELL aka Percy Evelyn GARNER on his marriage certificate, and (3) what happened to him after Elizabeth's death in 1949.

On (1), I think I made have made some progress. There was a John POWELL born on 07 Sep 1884 in Eltham (Q4 1884 Lewisham 1d 1119) to Edward and Kate POWELL. Kate's maiden name was BARRY. Edward was a labourer. The 1891 census (RG12 508 33 8) finds the family living at Thames Street, Greenwich. The 1901 census (RG13 536 48 34) finds them still at Thames Street, Greenwich. In Aug 1902 John (6597) attests for the Royal West Kent Regiment, from which he is discharged in Dec 1910. By the 1911 census (RG14 2673), John is living with his widowed mother at Roan Street, Greenwich, working as a labourer in the Royal Arsenal. In the 1901 census, his father Edward is described as a coal porter, which agrees with the description on John's marriage certificate to Elizabeth. Moreover, John's DOB on the 1939 Register is given as 07 Sep 1884, the same as the John born in Eltham. This all seems very plausible, though far from proven.

On (2), I still have no idea as to why he is also know as Percy Evelyn GARNER, who as far as I can see is an entirely different person.

On (3), there was a suggestion by JMcKinnon of a death in Willesden, which I followed up. I have my doubts about this death. The John Powell who died aged 69 lived at 30 Myrtle Road, Acton and was a retired engineer's fitter, whereas when last heard of in the 1939 Register, my man was a builder's labourer and still was on Elizabeth's death certificate in 1949. The informant was an A RANSOM, his niece, who lived at 3 Albert Road, Richmond, Surrey.

So to sum up, I think I am happy with having identified him between 1884 and 1911, still have no idea about the alternative name or when he died.
SDV
 
Posts: 378
Joined: Mon Apr 13, 2015 4:47 pm

Re: Elizabeth BURTON

Postby JMcK » Fri Jul 27, 2018 8:17 am

Forgive me if I have missed it, but have you bought the 1936 death for Percy E Garner?
JMcK
 
Posts: 306
Joined: Thu Feb 02, 2017 7:59 pm

Re: Elizabeth BURTON

Postby SDV » Fri Jul 27, 2018 9:42 am

Yes, that was the other one. Our man features on the 1939 register and still alive in 1955.
SDV
 
Posts: 378
Joined: Mon Apr 13, 2015 4:47 pm

Re: Elizabeth BURTON

Postby SDV » Sat Aug 25, 2018 10:49 pm

Hi

I would still welcome some help on locating John Powell's death.
SDV
 
Posts: 378
Joined: Mon Apr 13, 2015 4:47 pm

PreviousNext

Return to General research queries


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 8 guests