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Peter Bailey (British in India)

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Re: Peter Bailey (British in India)

Postby Henley » Sat Oct 04, 2014 11:05 am

BritInd wrote:
leslam wrote:Hi Peter
Lesley

Dear Lesley.

I have found that a book called "The Ruling Caste" by David Gilmour gives a very good survey of the sort of lives led by Civil Servants in India over quite a length of times in India

I hope that this helps - Peter


Snippets of DG's book can be viewed via the Randomhouse website
Sorry, not allowed to post a URLs as a newbie!
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Re: Peter Bailey (British in India)

Postby Editor » Sat Oct 04, 2014 11:49 am

Thank you for coming on today and helping people with their queries Peter. I'm sure that you've given our forum users plenty of food for thought and new avenues to explore.

Next week our web chat will be with Laura Berry, the lead genealogist for the Who Do You Think You Are? series. She did most of the research for Twiggy's episode so she'll be answering questions about that on Friday afternoon along with any general queries forum users may have about being a researcher for Who Do You Think You Are?

Have a good weekend everyone!

Sarah
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Re: Peter Bailey (British in India)

Postby leslam » Sat Oct 04, 2014 12:00 pm

Henley wrote:
BritInd wrote:
leslam wrote:Hi Peter
Lesley

Dear Lesley.

I have found that a book called "The Ruling Caste" by David Gilmour gives a very good survey of the sort of lives led by Civil Servants in India over quite a length of times in India

I hope that this helps - Peter


Snippets of DG's book can be viewed via the Randomhouse website
Sorry, not allowed to post a URLs as a newbie!


Thank you both for such useful information. The whole session has been very interesting to read.
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Re: Peter Bailey (British in India)

Postby Millst » Sat Oct 04, 2014 2:33 pm

Thank you very much Peter for your ideas, I'll certainly follow them up.
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Re: Peter Bailey (British in India)

Postby Whiteblade » Sun Oct 05, 2014 11:18 am

Hello Peter,
I have brief details of John Gill, born Calcutta in 1847. His wife was Mary. I think from the dates and locations of their children's births that the 81st Regiment of Foot is a possibility for John, but I'm not sure. The children are
Albert b 1875 Gibraltar,
John F b 1877 Jullandur, Bengal,
Mabel Violet b 1880 Ferozepore, Bengal,
and the final two children born in England in 1883 onwards.
Can you offer any suggestions please?
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Re: Peter Bailey (British in India)

Postby Sylcec » Mon Oct 06, 2014 1:14 am

Whiteblade wrote:Hello Peter,
I have brief details of John Gill, born Calcutta in 1847. His wife was Mary. I think from the dates and locations of their children's births that the 81st Regiment of Foot is a possibility for John, but I'm not sure. The children are
Albert b 1875 Gibraltar,
John F b 1877 Jullandur, Bengal,
Mabel Violet b 1880 Ferozepore, Bengal,
and the final two children born in England in 1883 onwards.
Can you offer any suggestions please?


I hope that you and Peter won't mind me responding to your query and he will probably have more to add.
Firstly, yes, John Gill senior was in HM 81st - by the time of Mabel's birth he was a Colour Sergeant. However, and surprisingly, I have not been able to find a WO97 service record for him, and think it likely that he took his discharge in 1881 at the time of the army reorganisation.
From 1865-1870 the regiment served in England and Ireland, and was then posted to Gibraltar. In 1874 it was posted to India and then home in 1881. You can read history here: http://www.lancashireinfantrymuseum.org.uk/the-81st-loyal-lincolnshire-volunteers-regiment-of-foot/
From the 1911 census, John and Mary have been married 42 years, they had 8 children of whom 3 have died. As Mary was born in Cork, I suggest that you look for a marriage in Ireland around 1868-1870. You need this to get a father's name for John in order to identify his birth/baptism in Calcutta.
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Re: Peter Bailey (British in India)

Postby Sylcec » Mon Oct 06, 2014 9:46 am

More on John Gill.
I made the classic mistake in assuming too much by giving info about John's regiment. Albert's birth in Gibraltar is registered in the army births and it records his father as being in the 8th Kings Royal Irish Hussars, so John Gill must have transferred regiments at some time.
From Findmypast:
First name(s) ALBERT E
Last name GILL
Year range 1874
Place GIBRALTAR
Country GIBRALTAR
Regiment 8th (King's Royal Irish) Hussars
Record source GRO Regimental Birth Indices (1761 to 1924)
Volume 1121, Page 68
(This birth also appears in the Army Chaplains birth indexes)
To learn the details of John Gill's service you will need to have the muster rolls searched at the National Archives at Kew.

This, may well be a record of his marriage in Ireland (as found on www.familysearch.org)
Name: John Gill
Birth Date: 1844
Age: 24
Spouse's Name: Mary Little
Spouse's Birth Date: 1849
Spouse's Age: 19
Event Date: 14 Jul 1868
Event Place: St Ann'S Shandon, Cork, Ireland
Father's Name: William Gill
Spouse's Father's Name: James Little
However, to be sure, you will need to get a copy of the original record which will show John GIll's occupation, and/or a copy of Albert's birth certificate with the hope that it will show his mother's maiden name. Think that's about it! Good hunting, Sylvia Murphy (FIBIS member)
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Re: Peter Bailey (British in India)

Postby Sylcec » Tue Oct 07, 2014 9:03 am

BritInd wrote:
MoVidger wrote:Dear Peter,

My friend and I have hit a brick wall with one of her India-born ancestors:

Mary Simpson was born in Cuddalore, India in 1852 (according to the 1891 UK census).

Father: James Simpson (age and occupation unknown)
Mother: unknown

In 1870, Mary married Abraham Holmes in St Thomas, Madras whilst he was serving in the British Army (45th Regiment). Their first 3 children were born Wellington, Rangoon, and Bangalore. By 1879, the Abraham had re-located his family to Bradford, West Yorkshire where the family continued to grow.

We have checked with the India Office at the British Library, but they only have the brief 1870 marriage entry for Abraham and Mary. This record indicates James Simpson as Mary's father, and her 1852 birth year.

We have also searched the India Office Records on familysearch for a likely birth/baptism entry for Mary Simpson, but to no avail.

If you can offer any suggestions with regards to researching Mary's birth and parental details a bit further, we'd be very grateful.

Thanks very much,
Mo


Hello again Mo
Peter and I have been discussing your problem further and he has asked me to respond on his behalf.

In the FMP records I came across the marriage of a James SIMSON in 17 July 1843 at Cuddalore - he's a widower, a "pensioned gunner" and apparently an RC marriage. Don't know his age, and can't see any children born to the couple - they may not have had any, or their apparent absence may be a function of the lack of RC returns.

If you are interested in following this up, then my guess would be that James Simson was pensioned from the Madras Artillery (though could be from the R.A.), in either case additional records will be available.
Sylvia Murphy (FIBIS & forum member)
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Re: Peter Bailey (British in India)

Postby MoVidger » Tue Oct 07, 2014 12:49 pm

Hello Sylvia and Peter,

Thanks very much for re-visiting our query, and providing further info and suggestions.

We have looked at the FMP 1843 marriage record you suggested, but cannot locate an entry showing James Simpson as a "widower" and "pensioned gunner", as per your reply. The entry we can see indicates James Simpson (age 33) as a "Bachelor" and "Serjeant 1st M.E.R" marrying an Agnes Milton.

Also, that marriage entry indicates their Residence as Black Town, but is that quite a distance from Cuddalore?

Two other possibilities re James Simpson with Cuddalore ties we have considered are:

1. On LDS, there is an 6 April 1844 baptism entry for a Sarah Simpson born in Cuddalore. Father is James Simpson and the Mother is "Andach". No idea if this is our James Simpson, though. We have recently contacted the British Library to ask if they have a more detailed entry for this baptism, in order to ascertain the father's occupation and age, etc. We awaiting their reply, in the meantime.

2. During a cursory search of the 1881 UK census, using Cuddalore as the birth place and an 1850 estimated birth year (with a 10-year range), we had "hits" of several people living in England who matched this criteria. And nearly all of the Heads of Family had occupations listed along the lines of "East India Company Civil Servant", interesting enough.

So we're wondering if Cuddalore had a distinct connection to the EIC in the mid-19th century? If so, could our James Simpson have been an EIC employee, rather than military? Any clues where we might be able to establish this?

Lastly, we had a another look at the 1870 marriage entry for Abraham Holmes & Mary Simpson. It indicated the names of two witnesses: A. Firth and F. Simpson. Sadly, the first names were not listed. So we cannot establish if F. Simpson was male or female. And other than James Simpson being Mary's father, we know nothing else about her own family (e.g. mother's name or siblings).

In the meantime, we will carry on researching this brick wall. Again, thank you in advance for any additional suggestions or advice you can provide.

Mo
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Re: Peter Bailey (British in India)

Postby MoVidger » Tue Oct 07, 2014 3:47 pm

Hi again Sylvia and Peter,

Please disregard a bit of my earlier reply. I now realise where the discrepancy lies: you referenced an 1843 marriage record with the name spelled SIMSON. We were looking for the record against SIMPSON, out of habit. Coincidentally, the SIMPSON marriage we referenced was the exact same date as your SIMSON record, adding to the overall confusion! :o

Thanks to your helpful input, though, things are looking more clearer now.

We have since had a reply from the British Library, and they've confirmed that 'pensioned gunner' James Simpson and his wife Anthache did have a child in 1844 in Cuddalore. The baptism record definitely indicates James as a "pensioned gunner". So this baptism 'joins the dots' with the marriage record you found. (No other births have been found yet).

Unfortunately, we have no way of knowing if our Mary Simpson belongs to this family, but the fact she was born in Cuddalore in 1852 does hint at the possibility.

You mentioned additional records will be available for the Madras Artillery and Royal Artillery, with respect to James Simpson. Please could you point us in the direction of any online records? (We regularly search FIBIS, FMP, LDS and the BL). Are there more appropriate records we should be focusing our attention on? It would be interesting to investigate this James Simpson further.

Many thanks again!
Mo
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