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WILLIAMS family, Kington area (Herefordshire)

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WILLIAMS family, Kington area (Herefordshire)

Postby Davena » Fri Jul 05, 2019 10:33 am

My ancestor RICHARD WILLIAMS probably was born in the Kington* area of Herefordshire but I cannot find anything about his birth, parentage nor who he married - except her name was Ann. I think he was born c.1811 but later he and his family were living in Carmarthen, South Wales. He may well have been a drover (in a small way) for a while and then had work in Carmarthen slaughterhouse. I am very keen to discover his origins as the first I read of him is in the 1841 census where he is labelled 'Pig driver'. In the 1851 census he is labelled 'Drover'. *Also in this 1851 census it is written that he is from "Keyton, Herefordshire". I have always assumed this was because of his accent because there is NO 'Keyton' in Herefordshire! Any help at all would be most welcome.
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Re: WILLIAMS family, Kington area (Herefordshire)

Postby MoVidger » Fri Jul 05, 2019 1:13 pm

This 1811 baptism on FMP:

Herefordshire Baptisms
First name(s) Richard
Last name Williams
Sex Male
Birth year -
Baptism year 1811
Baptism date 13 Oct 1811
Place Kington
Father's first name(s) James
Father's last name Williams
Mother's first name(s) Martha
Mother's last name -
County Herefordshire
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Re: WILLIAMS family, Kington area (Herefordshire)

Postby MoVidger » Fri Jul 05, 2019 1:20 pm

Did her marry in Wales? A marriage and Banns records on FMP with images. It's a good fit because Richard's occupation is Servant on marriage record, and also on son Richard's 1836 baptism.

Carmarthenshire Marriages And Banns
First name(s) Richard
Last name Williams
Birth year -
Marriage date 24 Jun 1834
Marriage place Carmarthen, St Peter
Residence Saint Peter
Spouse's first name(s) Ann
Spouse's last name Jones
Spouse's birth year -
Spouse's residence Saint Peter

First name(s) Richard
Last name Williams
Birth year -
Banns date 01 Jun 1834
Marriage year -
Marriage place Carmarthen, St Peter
Marital status bachelor
Residence St Peter, Carmarthen
Spouse's first name(s) Ann
Spouse's last name Jones
Spouse's birth year -
Spouse's marital status spinster
Spouse's residence St Peter, Carmarthen
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Re: WILLIAMS family, Kington area (Herefordshire)

Postby Davena » Fri Jul 05, 2019 4:10 pm

I don't know where they married, sorry. This is why I don't know Ann's surname.
I will follow up on both these hints for which I am VERY grateful. I do hope the one concerning Richard's birth is HIM. That would be amazing as it wopuld give me his parents' name. I had thought I had followed all the clues - but we'll see! :)
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Re: WILLIAMS family, Kington area (Herefordshire)

Postby MoVidger » Fri Jul 05, 2019 4:20 pm

On Family Search this possible marriage for James Williams:

England, Herefordshire Bishop's Transcripts
Name: James Williams
Event Type: Marriage
Event Date: 7 Feb 1805
Event Place: Herefordshire, England, United Kingdom
Spouse's Name: Martha Morris

NOTE: There are two Martha Morris' from the Kington area. Both married in 1805.
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Re: WILLIAMS family, Kington area (Herefordshire)

Postby ianbee » Sat Jul 06, 2019 9:41 am

Carmarthen St Peter
1841, Richard Williams, 35, Pig Driver (living with Ann Williams, 34, George, 15, Sarah, 12, John, 7, Richard, 6, Elinor, 4, Maryann, 1, all born county)
1851, Richard Williams, 58, Drover, born Hereford Keyton
There's also a RW in 1861, 69, General Labourer, born Herefordshire

These ages are a long way off from someone born circa 1811?
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Re: WILLIAMS family, Kington area (Herefordshire)

Postby Davena » Tue Jul 09, 2019 10:52 am

MoVidger wrote:On Family Search this possible marriage for James Williams:

England, Herefordshire Bishop's Transcripts
Name: James Williams
Event Type: Marriage
Event Date: 7 Feb 1805
Event Place: Herefordshire, England, United Kingdom
Spouse's Name: Martha Morris

NOTE: There are two Martha Morris' from the Kington area. Both married in 1805.


Thanks, but I do know that Richard's wife was definitely an 'Ann'.
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Re: WILLIAMS family, Kington area (Herefordshire)

Postby DebbieBB » Fri Jul 12, 2019 8:13 pm

Hi Davena, you could try following up the GRO searchable birth indexes and Welsh BMD records. Although 1841 census ages can be a bit vague, Richard and Ann's youngest child showing in that census and possibly even the next one would show up in civil registration records from 1837. The GRO search will give the mother's maiden name. You could repeat for any children popping up in the next census.

best of luck.
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Re: WILLIAMS family, Kington area (Herefordshire)

Postby ianbee » Fri Jul 12, 2019 8:25 pm

DebbieBB wrote:Although 1841 census ages can be a bit vague, Richard and Ann's youngest child showing in that census and possibly even the next one would show up in civil registration records from 1837. The GRO search will give the mother's maiden name.

Hope so, Debbie! But you mean that a child might show up in civil registration records. It's not a certainty in those early days. And Williams is a common name, can't find a baptism to help.
I have speculated to Davena that Ann might have been an Evans. That's even less certain!
Ian
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Re: WILLIAMS family, Kington area (Herefordshire)

Postby howardshelton » Sun Sep 15, 2019 3:52 pm

I am curious to know why you think Richard was born c1811? The census returns on which I've found him (all in Carmarthen) point to a birth around 1792. 1841 states that he (like his wife Ann) was born c1806 in Carmarthenshire. This is probably an error because 1851 has (as you remarked) c1793 "Keyton, Herefordshire". 1861 has c1792 "Herefordshire", and I'm pretty sure he was still alive in 1871, which has c1791 "Glasetry, Radnorshire". This, I believe, is probably GLADESTRY Radnorshire, which is just south of Old Radnor, which is just a few miles west of Knighton, Herefordshire.

A boy named Richard Williams (son of William and Margaret) was baptized at Old Radnor on 23rd May 1791, but I can't see how one would prove that this is the right baptism.

The Richard Williams whose death was registered in Carmarthen, 2nd quarter 1864 was aged 69 (GRO online deaths index) (age c72 expected). However, I believe that YOUR Richard Williams died 3rd quarter 1874 in Carmarthen, "aged 83".

Now to Ann's maiden name. The youngest child "Mary Ann" should indeed appear in the birth index (although I agree with you that one cannot rely on it 100%.) Also, her precise age is unclear, because 1841 gives her "age 1" but 1851 says "age 9". The 1841 entry could, however, be a mistake for "aged 1 month": there is a baptism of a Mary Williams, daughter of Richard and Ann, at St David's church Carmarthen on 20th May 1858, giving a date of birth of 15th March 1841. I believe that the corresponding entry in the births index may be Mary Williams, 2nd Q 1841 Carmarthen - mother's former name: EVANS.

Finally, I believe that the correct death registration for Ann Williams is probably 2nd Q 1848 Carmarthen "aged 43" (ie born c1805). This would have made her aged about 19 when the couple's son George was born on 26th October 1824 (baptism in Carmarthen on 14th November 1824). If the couple were already married, it must have occured c1822-24 (I have not found any likely marriage record online in that time period.)

According to the census returns, Richard and Ann also had Sarah c1829, John c1833, Richard c1835 and Elenor c1837, but the only other baptism I have found (Carmarthenshire baptisms on Findmypast) is Richard: baptized at Carmarthen St Peter on 12th April 1836.
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