Who Do You Think You Are Magazine Forum

[Narnie]

I have James Atkinson on the 1911 census with his wife Jane and children Hilda, Edwin and Bertha living at 3 Harrison St, Carlisle. Daughter Jane is born on 9 Feb 1912 but sadly Jane dies in that quarter. Chronologically, the next record I have is when James enters the RAF on 3.7.18 aged 40 3/12. He transfers to RAF Reserve on 25.3.19 and is discharged on 30.4.20. (I don't know where the children are when James is away. The person to be informed of casualties is his father Thomas Atkinson of 52 Port Rd, Carlisle. His wife is shown as deceased and his children's dobs are listed as Hilda 28.12.02, Edwin 21.9.04, Bertha 19.1.10 and Jane 9.2.12. From the 1939 Register and GRO I think Bertha should be June not Jan though.) James remarries in Q3 1919 and has four sons in 1920. 1921, 1922 and 1927 but I don't know if his other children live with him. Only one of the four sons stays in Carlisle in adulthood, the others going to Manchester/Cheshire, Wales and Cheshire/Portsmouth. James died in 1935 in Carlisle. I think that in 1939 Hilda is in Workington, while Bertha and Jane are in Carlisle. Hilda and Jane die in Carlisle but Bertha in Liverpool. However, there is no sign of Edwin after 1911. I've tried everything I can think of. I struggled to find the girls to start with but then things started to fall into place, but still nothing for Edwin. Any ideas would be very much appreciated.

[avaline]

A bit of a long shot, but have you ruled out the Edwin Atkinson who died in Scotland in January 1969, aged 64?

The district is given as Glasgow, but probate gives the address as 23 Strathblane Road, Milngavie.

[Narnie]

Thank you for looking at this Avaline. Your suggestion is definitely worth further investigation. I had looked on Scotland's People before hoping to find maybe a marriage but nothing came up, though I see the death now. I'll dig deeper, though might need to send for the certificate (it's 50 years this year...). Where is the probate record please? Thanks again.

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[avaline]

The probate is on the normal probate search site: https://probatesearch.service.gov.uk/#wills

I'm using the phrase probate but it actually says Confirmation sealed London 28 April [1969].

[Narnie]

Oh I see it, thank you. My first thought is what does 'Confirmation sealed' actually mean? Furthermore, why London? I was once told (in my local archives) that there must be something significant if it's London as opposed to where they lived (if not the London area). Does this mean there is a will? (Which I'd hope would reveal more.)

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[AdrianB38]

The word "Sealed" is what I see when a will has been proven in Scotland - because the deceased died there - but there is a necessity, as I understand it, to access assets in England & Wales. Bear in mind that England & Wales on the one hand, and Scotland, on the other, are different legal domains so getting "probate" in Scotland doesn't give you authority to access to any funds or whatever held in England & Wales. The will needs to be "read across" and authorised south of the Border. Presumably it's a simple process....

(I'm using English terms here for events in relation to probate and wills)

"Confirmation Sealed" is not a phrase I've seen before so I'm unclear exactly what it means - I know that Scots "probate" procedures have a "confirmation of the executors" so whether that's something to do with it, I've no idea.

All this might suggest that there is a will - though if Letters of Administration were needed to access stuff in England & Wales, because there's no will, I have to say that I've no idea what the phrase might be - it could be "Confirmation Sealed" implying there is no will

If there is a will, the only certain place to access it will be via Scotland (see ScotlandsPeople because I think that they advise you what to do if the will isn't on-line). Anything in England & Wales might just be a simple confirmation that X and Y can distribute the estate.

Slightly too many questions in this answer but at least it might help to point you in the right direction.

[AdrianB38]

"London" isn't significant in the civil handling of probate by the way. My 3G GF's estate - which was a few cottages in Cheshire - was proven in London - maybe the solicitors were a branch of a London based office.

[brunes08]

I agree that where probate is granted is not significant. A family member died in Cornwall but probate was granted in Bristol. Another family member died in London but probate was granted in Newcastle. I haven’t so far found out why this is so.


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[Narnie]

Thank you for that reply AdrianB38... Between you and Avaline my brain has been working overtime! It suddenly occurred to me that I have 'access' to a young Scottish lawyer (a friend of a friend) for a further opinion on this (a very quick one on their commute home)… You might be interested to know that they said they hadn't heard that exact phrasing before either but they suspect it means that the will has been submitted to a court to apply for confirmation for a deceased person's estate. They said confirmation is what probate is called in England and that the executors have a duty to 'ingather the estate' as there can often be assets in England. (The assets in England bit surprised me really.) A record of a will doesn't come up on Scotland's People so I'll need to look into that further.

Following on from Avaline's suggested death record... that record isn't available online yet (he died in 1969!) so as I was now looking at Scotland I trawled potential marriages and one, to Rachel Cunningham, stood out. An Edwin and a Rachel Cunningham both died at Milngavie so as the marriage record was online I could instantly see that this was in fact MY EDWIN!!!! Success!! Thank you so much to you both!

I now need to see if they had any family but this seems more difficult in Scotland because it doesn't show the mother's maiden name. (I'm sure it used to!)

Thanks again.

[Narnie]

[quote="brunes08"]I agree that where probate is granted is not significant. A family member died in Cornwall but probate was granted in Bristol. Another family member died in London but probate was granted in Newcastle. I haven’t so far found out why this is so.


This strangely just popped up as I was replying! Thank you for this reply. I recall being excited when I was told that probate being London meant there was a reason why, as in something significant... it actually turned out to be nothing out of the ordinary. So, all in all, probate locations don't help at all.